December 29, 2024, 08:24:56 AM
Forum Rules: Read This Before Posting


Topic: Phenolic tar formation during synthesis of phenols  (Read 4106 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mir

  • Fascinated organic chemist
  • Chemist
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 310
  • Mole Snacks: +13/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • Visit my blog: mir.humle.be
    • My humble homepage with norwegian articles
Phenolic tar formation during synthesis of phenols
« on: March 06, 2007, 06:48:30 AM »
A common problem during phenol synthesis is the formation of phenolic tar. You get a black precipitate, probably because of polymerization. But I havent figured out how it forms, which factors thats important etc, I dont think anyone knows. A short search for it on scifinder, gave only two papers. And they were of course in chinese. Other papers mention it like it was something everybody knows - or nothing to do about it.

How do we prevant phenolig tar formation? And what is the mechanism?

My tutor have a theory, he think acids (one factor we know forms tars) protonate the hydroxy group, and makes it reactive. But he cant explain how.

Is this a radical reaction?
No single thing abides, but all things flow.
Fragment to fragment clings, and thus they grow
Until we know and name them.
Then by degrees they change and are no more
The things we know.
- Titus Lucretius Carus

http://www.ife.no

Offline Custos

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 217
  • Mole Snacks: +32/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Phenolic tar formation during synthesis of phenols
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2007, 09:18:25 PM »
What else is in the synthesis? If you have aldehydes present you might be getting  a thermosetting phenol formaldehyde resin material (like Bakelite). If it's just phenol then at a guess I would say it's some oxidation process causing the polymerisation. I'd try the reaction excluding oxygen and/or using an free radical scavenger.

Offline mir

  • Fascinated organic chemist
  • Chemist
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 310
  • Mole Snacks: +13/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • Visit my blog: mir.humle.be
    • My humble homepage with norwegian articles
Re: Phenolic tar formation during synthesis of phenols
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2007, 12:27:25 PM »
Hydrogen peroxide is present in the solution (so excluding oxygen is no option). Its the oxidant. Do you have an example of a scavenger?
No single thing abides, but all things flow.
Fragment to fragment clings, and thus they grow
Until we know and name them.
Then by degrees they change and are no more
The things we know.
- Titus Lucretius Carus

http://www.ife.no

Offline Custos

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 217
  • Mole Snacks: +32/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Phenolic tar formation during synthesis of phenols
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2007, 12:59:27 AM »
I think you're stuck. A scavenger will not help because you have an oxidant and free radical source (peroxide) present in the reaction.

Offline mir

  • Fascinated organic chemist
  • Chemist
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 310
  • Mole Snacks: +13/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • Visit my blog: mir.humle.be
    • My humble homepage with norwegian articles
Re: Phenolic tar formation during synthesis of phenols
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2007, 05:26:50 AM »
Oh well. But I did an optimization recently. Im studying the response surface now, and I see a hope to reduce the loss of my product  ;D
No single thing abides, but all things flow.
Fragment to fragment clings, and thus they grow
Until we know and name them.
Then by degrees they change and are no more
The things we know.
- Titus Lucretius Carus

http://www.ife.no

Sponsored Links