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suzy

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ph calculation
« on: March 26, 2005, 05:13:19 PM »
problem :

How do I have to calculate the pH of a  mixture of 10 mL 0,1M NH4H2PO4 and 10 mL 0,2M K3PO4
ammoniumion:
pKa = 9.25 ;
fosforic acid:
pKA1= 2.15 ;
pKA2 =7.20 ;
pKA3 = 12.38

solution: my trial

I first calculated the equivalents:
for NH4H2PO4 = 10*0.1 = 1mmol ;
for K3PO4 = 10*0.2 = 2mmol ;



reactions H3PO4 -> H ( +) + H2PO4(-) pKa1 = 2.15 thus pKb1 = 11.85   ;                                      
              H2PO4(-) -> H ( +) + HPO4(2-) pKa2 = 7.20 thus pKb2 = 6.80  ;
              HPO4(2-) -> H ( +) + PO4(3-) pKa3 = 12.38 thus pKb3 = 1.62  ;

              NH4H2PO4 -> NH4( +) + H2PO4(-) K3PO4 -> 3K( +) + PO4(3-) ;

Then I made react both reactants :
...NH4H2PO4 + PO4(3-) -> NH4 HPO4(2-) + HPO4(2-)
pKa....9,25....7,20..-..9,25....-....12,38
pKb.. -..11,85...1,62....-..11,85..-...  

I think that this is a buffer, but I don't know what to do with the 1mmol NH4?
So, I didn't take note of this concentration and I calculated the pH with the equation of Henderson-Hasselbach :  
pH = pKa + log (Base)/(Acid)
How can I find the concentrations of base and acid in this reaction?
I thought that it was 1mmol H2PO4(-)  and 2mmol PO4(3-) both as a base.   How can I find from those equivalents  the concentration of an acid and put them in the equation of Henderson-Hasselbach?  
Can someone help me, please?  
Thank you,
Suzy

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Re:ph calculation
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2005, 10:43:29 PM »
I wouldn't use hendersson ...equation on a mixed system of various pKas. Well, here's my attempt.

The problem poses an interesting question of whether NH4+ equlibrium plays a role in the PH.  It turns out it does not if it is assumed that [H2PO4] and PO4 remain close to their original values, at equilibrium (a common assumption in buffer cases). First, I'll include NH4 in the calculations:

The following 3 equilibria are simultaneous with the same value for [H+]
[H+] = K[NH4]/[NH3]   (eq 1)

[H+]= K2[H2PO4]/[HPO4]   (eq 2)

[H+] = K3[HPO4]/[PO4]    (eq 3)

multiplying together yields:
[H+]3 = KK2K3[NH4][H2PO4]/[NH3][PO4]   (eq 4)

We know H2PO4 = .05M and PO4 = .1M and assume that the actual values are close to those.
Now, the problem is to determine a value for NH4/NH3.  Square eq 1  and multiply eq 2 by eq 3:
[H+]2 = K^2[NH4/NH3]^2
[H+]2 = K2K3[H2PO4]/[PO4]  (the goal of cancelling HPO4 out is achieved)
then divide the above two to yield:

1 = K^2[NH4/NH3]^2[PO4]/K2K3[H2PO4]
hence,
[NH4/NH3]^2 = K2K3[H2PO4]/K^2[PO4] = 6.3x10^-8* 4.2x10^-13* 0.05/(5.6x10^-10)^2 * 0.1
= .042
[NH4/NH3] = .205
Plugging this value and the others into the equation 4:
[H+]3 = 5.6x10^-10* 6.3x10^-8* 4.2x10^-13* .205* .05/.1
[H+]3 = 1.52x10^-30
[H+] = 1.15x10^-10
PH = 9.94

It turns out that whatever K is, it's effect is nullified by NH4/NH3, ie. larger K, smaller NH4/NH3, as long as it is in keeping with the assumption.

To illustrate, I exclude NH4+ and work only with eq 2 multiplied by eq 3. I wind up with the same result:
[H+]2 = K2K3[H2PO4]/[PO4]
[H+]2 = 6.3x10^-8* 4.2x10^-13* .05/.1
      = 1.32x10^-20
[H+] = 1.15x10^-10
pH = 9.94




Offline Borek

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Re:ph calculation
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2005, 05:13:39 AM »
Quote
if it is assumed that [H2PO4] and PO4 remain close to their original values, at equilibrium

It doesn't hold:

H3PO4        3.099e-013  (p =  12.51)
H2PO4^-    7.171e-005  (p =   4.14)
HPO4^2^-  1.479e-001  (p =   0.83)
PO4^3^-    2.016e-003  (p =   2.70)
H^+           3.059e-011  (p =  10.51)
OH^-         3.269e-004  (p =   3.49)
NH4+         2.581e-003  (p =   2.59)
NH3           4.742e-002  (p =   1.32)
K+             2.997e-001  (p =   0.52)
KOH           3.100e-004  (p =   3.51)

These are results of numerical attack. It seems hydrolisis is to strong.

pKb for KOH is 0.5.


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Offline AWK

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Re:ph calculation
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2005, 07:22:54 AM »
There is an error of one order for concentration in Borek calculation (should be 0.05 and 0.1 approximately for concentration of H2PO4(-) and PO4(3-), respectively). Moreover, from the information on program he used, the activity, not concentrations, were used in his calculations, and this may give substantial differences of calculations with using multicharged ions.
AWK

Offline Borek

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Re:ph calculation
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2005, 11:48:37 AM »
There is an error of one order for concentration in Borek calculation (should be 0.05 and 0.1 approximately for concentration of H2PO4(-) and PO4(3-), respectively).

[PO4(3-)] + [HPO4(2-)] + [H2PO4(-)] + [H3PO4] = 0.15

I think it is consistent with the question posted. Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote
Moreover, from the information on program he used, the activity, not concentrations, were used in his calculations, and this may give substantial differences of calculations with using multicharged ions.

I haven't posted any information about the program I am using so you are just guessing. And you are wrong.

Results shown were for concentration calculations. Here are results for activities (substance formula, substance concentrations, activity coefficient, substance activity):

H3PO4         2.692e-013 * 1.000 =  2.692e-013 (p =  12.57)
H2PO4^-     3.614e-005 * 0.559 =  2.019e-005 (p =   4.69)
HPO4^2^-   1.386e-001 * 0.097 =  1.349e-002 (p =   1.87)
PO4^3^-     1.135e-002 * 0.005 =  6.005e-005 (p =   4.22)
H^+           1.690e-010 * 0.559 =  9.442e-011 (p =  10.02)
OH^-          1.896e-004 * 0.559 =  1.059e-004 (p =   3.98)
NH4+          1.156e-002 * 0.559 =  6.458e-003 (p =   2.19)
NH3            3.844e-002 * 1.000 =  3.844e-002 (p =   1.42)
K+              2.999e-001 * 0.559 =  1.675e-001 (p =   0.78)
KOH            5.615e-005 * 1.000 =  5.615e-005 (p =   4.25)

Ionic strength is 0.968 so it is too high for a Debye-Huckel theory anyway.

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Offline AWK

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Re:ph calculation
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2005, 05:06:41 AM »
Sorry, fast thinking is worse than fast food. Borek is completely right.
But I think, it is quite sufficient to calculate hydrolysis of 0.15 M HPO4(2-)
AWK

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