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Topic: Does this O. Chem program exist?  (Read 7696 times)

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Offline nj_bartel

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Does this O. Chem program exist?
« on: September 02, 2008, 01:26:58 AM »
A program where you can input the transformation you'd like to accomplish, say, alkene to alcohol, and it would spit out oxymercuration, hydroboration-oxidation, etc. for you?

Offline Mitch

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Re: Does this O. Chem program exist?
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2008, 05:23:26 AM »
I was writing a really cool one, where the system would actually evolve towards the shortest path to a synthesis. With the least synthetic steps would have an evolutionary advantage over a process with more steps, and genetic mutations (random synthetic step) would be inserted or deleted or coupled to try to find a shorter path. I was getting pretty far until I started tackling other problems.
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Offline enahs

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Re: Does this O. Chem program exist?
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2008, 07:49:14 AM »
Are you talking about giving a specific molecule and it analyzes the molecule to determine what would give the best yield?

Or just you say "I have an alkene, turn it into an alcohol"?

If it is the latter, it would be really easy to program. But at the same time it would be very easy to make a big flow-chart and hanging it on your wall or something.


Though maybe I should make a program to do it, as it would refresh me on my organic chemistry synthesis of which I am very lacking.

Offline nj_bartel

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Re: Does this O. Chem program exist?
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2008, 09:12:15 AM »
I'm talking about the latter Enahs; a flow chart would work but it would be huge  :P  It did seem to me like it wouldn't be the most complicated thing in the world to program, at least, what I had in mind - Mitch's idea seems it could be much more difficult.

At any rate, it'd definitely be a program I'd pay for, and I'd think other people would too  ;D

Offline Dan

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Re: Does this O. Chem program exist?
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2008, 09:23:21 AM »
SciFinder can do it, but that's very expensive....
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Offline nj_bartel

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Re: Does this O. Chem program exist?
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2008, 09:38:29 AM »
Oh, I didn't realize that - using scifinder for the first time this Thursday, have access to it in our research labs.

It would still certainly be nice to have a program that only does what I originally said.  I'd assume the bulk of the scifinder cost comes from it's massive database of papers and making them searchable.

Edit: Holy &*(^ scifinder is expensive.

Offline Mitch

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Re: Does this O. Chem program exist?
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2008, 12:13:01 AM »
Yeah, my program wasn't meant for your specific application, it just did it as an easy byproduct. The original idea I had was, to have a hypothetical system with all these different compounds and reactions going on simultaneously but not interfering with each other, after a few generations (synthetic steps) the system now hopefully contains some new structurally complicated molecules. Then screen these new molecules against active protein sites, to see if any interesting binding would come about.

The ones that interacted the best with this protein would be allowed "to survive". DNA in this case would code the synthetic steps associated with making it. And you could choose your selective driving force, in this case it was better binding to the protein, but the driving force could of as easily been # synthetic steps towards an actual product, or cost, or yield, or combinations of all these things.

Perhaps that's a good project to work on once I get a faculty position. I always liked this idea and will likely pursue it more in the future.
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Offline nj_bartel

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Re: Does this O. Chem program exist?
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2008, 12:40:30 AM »
Not sure I understand your idea.  It's a program that you would be able to input numerous reactions that are initially nonconflicting, but as the products begin to form, those products begin to in turn react with the various components/products themselves of the other reactions, which goes on in a cycle?  Sort of a 'find a molecule that interacts well with a protein' lottery?

Offline Mitch

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Re: Does this O. Chem program exist?
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2008, 02:03:15 AM »
For simplicity lets say it doesn't interact with other species in the system. I don't think I'm explaining this correctly, but I'll go through an illustrative example.

Goal: Lets say to make 1,3-dichlorohexane in as few steps as possible. Starting from the same propane derivative.

A Priori Knowledge: We could just look at this problem visually, and already come up with some efficient paths, but lets try to think of a program to do it instead. We could make a very efficient program that analyzes 1,3-dichlorohexane, and looks for different cuts it can make to see how we can couple this molecule from simpler parts (kinda like a retrosynthetic approach). But instead, lets make something much-much-much less efficient, lets purposefully make the program use evolution and natural selection principles as the engine to solve this problem; we do this because, it'll free us to do other cooler things later on.

Constructs: Lets say a molecule's DNA codes for all the synthetic steps it takes to make it, from a particular starting material. We will also say all molecules are asexual, and don't interact with any of the other molecules.

Begining: Lets say we have a 100 molecules. In the 1st generation, one random reaction will happen to every molecule. Some reactions will do nothing, others will change the functional group, others may actually lengthen the carbon-carbon backbone. But each molecule will now have an associated reaction with it, and we will add that reaction to the molecule's DNA. As the DNA is the history of all the reactions done to the individual molecule.

Selection: We then say that the best molecule, in this collection of 100, are those that have functional groups similar to the target and molecules that have a carbon-carbon backbone that is more similar to the target. We then kill off 50 of the 100 molecules that are most dissimilar. We allow the remaining molecules to "asexually divide" and make an other set of 100 molecules. Then we again react this new set of 100 molecules to another random series of synthetic reactions.

and repeat the whole process several times.

Mutations: We can also say when a molecule "asexually divides" it doesn't always copy it's synthetic history (DNA) correctly and a piece of the DNA can be deleted or inserted 10% of the time.

After many generations: We will have a system that is populated with a bunch of molecules that are the target or look very close to it. We could also be selecting on minimum synthetic steps, so not only will this system contain many of the target molecules, but hopefully also many target molecules with as few synthetic steps as possible.

Thus in the end, it isn't the greatest program for the original task, but it does end up being a generalized powerful program that allows one to play with a bunch of variables to drive synthesis towards the selection of molecules that have properties that you are looking for.

The driving variables in this case was functional groups, correct chain length, and minimum synthetic steps. But other variables we could of selected for was cost, or yield, or how well the molecule fits in active sites, or whatever your heart wants. 
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 02:13:54 AM by Mitch »
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Offline nj_bartel

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Re: Does this O. Chem program exist?
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2008, 10:03:16 AM »
Sounds like a very unique idea - I was wondering how you were going to go about inputting all the data in required for the program to follow various synthesis chains toward a product; letting it learn for itself what works is a clever approach.

Offline alphahydroxy

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Re: Does this O. Chem program exist?
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2008, 01:48:42 PM »
I remmber coming across such a program severeal years ago, though it was incomplete.

Aimed at industry, it was a program/database into which one could input an end structure and it would build a pathway to it from commercially available materials.

Unfortunately, I can't remember the name, but if anyone knows how it's getting on I would be very interested to hear about it...


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