[brettisis]

My question is regarding the possibility of vaporizing (heating the cannabis flower just enough to release the cannabinoids and THC in vapor form) bulk quantities (let's say 100 lbs) of cannabis and storing this vapor under pressure in tanks - just like laughing gas or helium?

Does the tank need to be kept at a certain temperature in order to keep the vapor "alive," able to be distributed into balloons or into other smaller tanks? Can you store it indefinitely and medicate, take "hits", from this tank, and get the same effect as if you inhaled the vapor when it was first released from the flower?

Can anyone explain why this would or wouldn't be possible?

If it is possible - any ideas on how to do it?

Thank you very much. Any insights into the chemistry of it would be helpful.

Please let me know if I haven't explained this well enough.

Brett

[Borek]

Please remember this is a loaded subject and the thread can be locked any time.

Tetrahydrocannabinol is a solid at STP, so no, it can't be stored as a compressed gas.

[Golden_4_Life]

 A decent pilot study would be to store a large amount of nascent vapor of the vaporized cannabinoids in the ballast at room temp and initiate a time course study.  A time course study is the conventional way of estimating the change in potency of any chemical species.
 Take samples from the ballast at day one, day three, day five, etc.. being sure to tightly re-seal the ballast afterwards and keep in dark.  Then inject into these date-stamped vapor samples into the GC and look for peaks that signify the "non-metabolized" cannabinoid compound (not the liver-metabolized compound).  I predict that over time, the peak areas should gradually decline as the parent compound degrades just due to simple oxidation. Whether the slope of the decline (cann conc at day one versus cann conc. at day five) is sharp or not is open to inquiry.  A sharp decline would indicate rapid loss of potency a mild slope would indicate reasonable stability and preservation.

[brettisis]

Hello,
In response to the first message, I just want to assure you the topic is for the medical administration of cannabinoids most effectively in hospitals. The American Medical Association recently changed its view on cannabis: The largest physician-based group in the country, the American Medical Association (AMA), voted Nov. 10 to reverse its long-held position that cannabis has no medical value. The AMA adopted a report drafted by its Council on Science and Public Health (CSAPH) entitled Use of Cannabis for Medicinal Purposes which affirmed the plant’s therapeutic benefits and called for further research.

I am just trying to conduct some of this research that can improve the plants therapeutic benefits, while reducing the potentially harmful side effects of the smoking process.

I know there are current vaporizers out there that hospitals are using, but these are still relatively basic and inadequate for the type of consistent dosages the medical industry is going to want before widespread adoption can occur.

In response to the second message: I need to study it a little more...

[brettisis]

I am not a chemistry expert, so please bear with me...
Must the THC be stored at STP?
I am talking about heating the flowers to release the vapor that I then want to capture in a tank.
What I mean by pressurized storage - is just the ability to store the most amount of this cannabis vapor in the kind of tanks used to store oxygen or helium or laughing gas.
Maybe you have already addressed this, but please clarify if possible.
Thanks again,
Brett

[Borek]

Vapor is gaseous due to its relatively high temperature (it already contains small amounts of solids, as the smoke you inhale is not THAT hot). Once you collect the smoke and store it in the tank, it will soon cool down to room temperature - that means solidification and condensation, you will be left not with pressurised smoke but with tar. Keeping it at elevated temperature means many times faster decoposition so it doesn't make sense, besides it wouldn't stop condensation completely, so no matter what temperature you store it at you will end with tar blocking walves.

[brettisis]

Thank you Borek for your explanation.

I thought the vaporization process eliminated the particulate matter that is present with traditional smoking methods; because it doesn't heat the plant material hot enough to cause combustion. Or are you saying in the lag time between the vapor being released and the time it takes to reach the tank, these solids or tar would form? It seems like there would be a way to control this process and keep the temperature constant as the vapor travels from plant to tank?

 In regards to the elevated temperature - would the optimal temperature to store the vapor be the same temperature that optimally released (without releasing any harmful gases or particulate matter) the vapor from the plant? At this temperature - what would it decompose into? Are you saying that the same temperature that created the vapor, over time, would decompose the vapor into something else? Where would it go, what would it be?

I also thought that tanks were airtight. How does the condensation occur.

Based on the use of clear plastic bags with vaporizers currently on the market, there is a tar left on the inside of them after many uses, but I just thought that was because the vapor was allowed to cool down.

Let's say the vapor was allowed to cool and become a tar, are you saying that heating it back up to the vaporization temperature wouldn't completely turn the tar back into vapor? 
   

[billnotgatez]

brettisis -
There are side effects of the canabis smoke that are similar to tobacco. Based on your discussion about the medical community they seem to be overlooking those side effects.
So maybe there is a parallel as to why we do not have tobacco smoke in containers rather the current method of ingestion.

Additionally - Maybe you should contemplate how inhalers work as well.

Side Note - Of course it may be more preferable to die of cancer in 30 years and not from the side effects of AIDS much sooner.

[Borek]

I thought the vaporization process eliminated the particulate matter that is present with traditional smoking methods; because it doesn't heat the plant material hot enough to cause combustion. Or are you saying in the lag time between the vapor being released and the time it takes to reach the tank, these solids or tar would form? It seems like there would be a way to control this process and keep the temperature constant as the vapor travels from plant to tank?

What I am saying is that whatever is freed from the plant by increased temperature will sooner or later cool down and it will create some kind of tar or goo. Exact composition will depend on teh temperature and other factors, and hoestly I have no idea what it will be, but that;s how these things behave in general.

In regards to the elevated temperature - would the optimal temperature to store the vapor be the same temperature that optimally released (without releasing any harmful gases or particulate matter) the vapor from the plant?

No, that's way too hot.

At this temperature - what would it decompose into? Are you saying that the same temperature that created the vapor, over time, would decompose the vapor into something else? Where would it go, what would it be?

No idea what decompositions products will be, but complicated organic molecules are rarely stable in elevated temperatures; I doubt THC is an exclusion. Simple rule of thumb says that reaction speed goes up twice with temperature going up by 10 deg C - as each rule of thumb it is far from being exact, but it basically means that in temperature of 100 deg C decomposition can be 256 times faster than at the room temp. Can be even much faster.

I also thought that tanks were airtight. How does the condensation occur.

I am referring to the condensation of substances already present in the smoke.

Based on the use of clear plastic bags with vaporizers currently on the market, there is a tar left on the inside of them after many uses, but I just thought that was because the vapor was allowed to cool down.

Tar that you see inside of the bag is the same tar that will condesne sooner or later in the tank. You can't keep the tank hot because of the decomposition, so tar will condense out.

Let's say the vapor was allowed to cool and become a tar, are you saying that heating it back up to the vaporization temperature wouldn't completely turn the tar back into vapor?

Yes, that's what I am saying. I must admit that's just a guess, but as long as we are talking about mixture of organic substances prepared by heating organic matter (leaves/buds) I am quite sure I am right.

[Borek]

There are side effects of the canabis smoke that are similar to tobacco. Based on your discussion about the medical community they seem to be overlooking those side effects.

Not necesarilly. I have read a little bit and it seems like they consider both sides.

Side Note - Of course it may be more preferable to die of cancer in 30 years and not from the side effects of AIDS much sooner.

Honestly - I can't see a link with AIDS

[billnotgatez]

Honestly - I can't see a link with AIDS

If I undestand correctly, AIDS patents tend to have symptoms that have been helped by cannabis.

[brettisis]

Thank you all so much for your help today on this topic, especially Borek for taking the time to answer each of my questions.

I did want to include a list of ailments currently being treated with medical cannabis, and yes, HIV is a major one.


Migraine Headaches   
Depression
Chronic Pain   
Anxiety
Glaucoma   
Multiple Sclerosis
 HIV / AIDS   
Insomnia
Cancer   
Sports Injuries
Chemotherapy   
Premenstrual Syndrome (PMDD)
Chronic Nausea   
Seizure Disorders
Muscle Spasms    
Arthritis
Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome (PTSD)   
Eating Disorders