[soleilenvierge]

I was surprised to learn that it's only AFTER performing a fractional distillation of liquid air that traces amount of noble gases (argon, xenon, neon, etc) are detected.

I suspect that maybe these noble gases that are found after performing a fractional distillation are the byproducts of the heating of the liquid air.

Does someone know if there's a way to detect noble gases in the atmosphere without having to perform fractional distillation?

For example, is there a way to do spectroscopy of liquid air to get its chemical composition WITHOUT performing fractional distillation?

thanks,
Jonathan 

[DevaDevil]

I suspect that maybe these noble gases that are found after performing a fractional distillation are the byproducts of the heating of the liquid air.

by-product? Do you suggest you are "creating" noble gases?

[soleilenvierge]

Question: by-product? Do you suggest you are "creating" noble gases?

What I'm suggesting is that noble gases found after the fractional distillation process of liquid air, might be, like Alpha particle(helium-4 nucleus), particles that are emitted in a decay process due to the heating of the liquid air. I'm supposing a decay of the oxygen or nitrogen atom into another of its isotope.   

[enahs]

You need to go back and look at your fundamentals, (protons, neutrons, electrons), what makes and element and element, an then go review your nuclear chemistry (alpha particles) you are talking about.

[ATMyller]

Noble gases in atmosphere are in rather low concentrations, but can be detected by means of mass spectrometry, but also with other spectroscopies if you enrich the noble gas concentration by removing other gases.
Solutions of hydrochloric or hydrobromic acids can be used to remove CO2, passing air sample over copper at high temperatures removes the H2 and the O2, and KOH and P2O5 can be used to remove the acids and moisture. what is left is mixture of nitrogen and noble gases with concetration high enough for gas discharge spectra.

[AWK]

Noble gases in atmosphere are in rather low concentrations, but can be detected by means of mass spectrometry, but also with other spectroscopies if you enrich the noble gas concentration by removing other gases.
Solutions of hydrochloric or hydrobromic acids can be used to remove CO2, passing air sample over copper at high temperatures removes the H2 and the O2, and KOH and P2O5 can be used to remove the acids and moisture. what is left is mixture of nitrogen and noble gases with concetration high enough for gas discharge spectra.

I doubt?

[DevaDevil]

indeed, passing the gas through a strong alkaline solution will remove the CO₂ (creating carbonate)

[soleilenvierge]

Thx ATMyller for your response: Noble gases in atmosphere are in rather low concentrations, but can be detected by means of mass spectrometry, but also with other spectroscopies if you enrich the noble gas concentration by removing other gases.


But in regards to Mass spectrometry ("which ionizes the atoms by impacting them with an electron beam" - source: wikipedia) I'm wondering if this electron beam couldn't cause some atoms to decay into other isotopes and again this decay being the possible source of the noble gases.

Do you know of any spectrometry technique that doesn't have any impact on the element that's being analyzed? 

[DevaDevil]

mass spectrometry does not bombard the elements with neutrons, which would be needed for radiological decay. Electrons simply are not heavy enough to initiate fission.

[rabolisk]

If only we could initiate a nuclear reaction so easily as to account for Ar which makes up nearly 1% of the atmosphere.. Wishful thinking, but noble gases are really in the atmosphere.

[soleilenvierge]

Enahs, I call in question the fundamentals that's why I'm asking these kind of questions. Noble gases seems not to be normal elements. They don't form natural bonds with any other elements. They don't react with other elements. They seem to be detected only after decays happens.

I'm trying to find evidence that maybe noble gases are simply byproducts of decay processes and nothing more.  

It's written in all chemistry books that noble gases are found in the atmosphere but what is not written are the techniques used to make this conclusion. If noble gases are found only after liquid air has gone through fractional distillation well that's very different then simply saying that noble gases are "found" in the atmosphere because what proofs do we have that it's not fractional distillation process that "created" these noble gases?

Also, is it possible that Mass spectrometry which cannot initiate fission (thank you DevaDevil) could initiate a decay (emission of a particle not fission) of O or N into one of its isotope? If that's possible, is it possible that the particle emitted through that decay be one of the noble gas?

[Borek]

You are wrong in so many ways at the same time, it is not clear where to start However, there is at least one place where the answer is obvious:

Also, is it possible that Mass spectrometry which cannot initiate fission (thank you DevaDevil) could initiate a decay (emission of a particle not fission) of O or N into one of its isotope? If that's possible, is it possible that the particle emitted through that decay be one of the noble gas?

"Particle emitted during decay" as you put it can be only smaller than the original nucleus. As original nucleus has 7 protons (nitrogen) and 8 protons (oxygen), they can only emit particles that have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 protons - these are nuclei of hydrogen, helium, lithium, beryllium, boron and carbon - neither of the is a noble gas of the large mass.

It doesn't mean such things happen - they don't.

You were already suggested to learn a little bit about elements, isotopes, nuclei, neutrons and protons - if you will try to at least read wikipedia articles and understand the very basic info about how the matter is build, you will see why your ideas are completely off.

[billnotgatez]

I would not group Argon in you trace list

traces amount of noble gases (argon, xenon, neon, etc)

They liquefy air all the time - I would think that empirically you would know the levels of each item in the atmosphere. I do not think you would say that you are bombarding the air during liquefaction.

[soleilenvierge]

Noble gases being byproducts of decay processes and nothing more is that an idea that's completely off also ?

Regards,

[rabolisk]

Noble gases being byproducts of decay processes and nothing more is that an idea that's completely off also ?

Regards,

Pretty much yes.