[mushaboom]

I'm currently an undergrad and I have been considering the idea of doing research and going onto grad school for some time now. This past semester, I finally started working in my professor's organic lab. It's only been a few weeks, so maybe I am being a little too paranoid/impatient, but I wanted to ask for everyone's input anyway...

My grad student is very nice and patient, but I get the feeling that he doesn't really take me seriously. He's been late to almost all of our meetings and once just told me to go home because he had nothing for me to do. I get that things happen, but he could let me know a little bit ahead of time at least. I'm supposed to spend 10+ hours of lab every week, but I've actually spent between 3 - 5 because he just doesn't let me do that much. He talks to me about all these readings he wants me to do and all these techniques I'm going to learn, but most of the time all I do is watch him. At this rate, I'm actually learning a lot more in my o-chem lab than I am in the research lab.

I've heard plenty of horror stories about how grad students treat their undergrads like slaves and whatnot. While that wouldn't be too great, I feel like I'd rather be in that position so that I at least know what research is like. Another thing is I feel so out of place at group meetings partially because I spend so little time in lab. The other undergrads have a better idea of what's going on and they also interact a lot better with the other lab members whereas I'm completely off on my own (my grad student doesn't even really interact with me except for that small amount of time we're in lab together).

I can deal with the lateness and even the awkwardness, but I really would like to get serious about doing research. Is it typical for things to be moving so slowly? I'm not expecting a publication or anything, but I kind of need this in order to figure out whether grad school is right for me.

[curiouscat]

I cannot say how things ought to be but the way you describe it is often how things are.

If it's only been a few weeks don't worry too much. No wonder you feel out of place at group meetings.  I felt out of place for 3 months & I wasn't even an undergrad. Being tardy is rude, I agree, but OTOH realize that you probably aren't his highest priority. Maybe his boss held him up & things can cascade.

Actually, getting to watch & shadow him isn't too bad at all. At least you get free access to the lab so when he's busy you can watch other stuff in action, talk to people, examine setups, instruments etc. My advice is make the best of it you can.

Realize that grad students are often too busy & overworked. Undergrads can sometimes feel more a chore than an asset. Not always, of course. But the quality & motivation of an average undergrad varies.

Try to make yourself useful. Offer him evidence that investing time in you will be worth it. Be diplomatic. Worst case, at least your Resume will benefit.

[Corribus]

+1 to curiouscat's post.

It's a mixed bag, really. Some grad students don't give a crap about mentoring undergrads. Others really like it. Part of the reason for this is because undergrads are a mixed bag, too. When I was a grad student, I had a few undergrads who were really great. I also had a few who were disasters, who wasted my time and resources and generally were a real safety hazard. So sometimes grad students just assume all undergrads are worthless. If you show you have value, your grad student may begin to utilize you. That said, you might show you have value and your grad student still just doesn't care about you.

If you really become frustrated, tell the professor and ask to be assigned to someone else. Of course, professors are also a mixed bag. He/she might not care or they might love the chance to call the grad student in and tear him a new butthole. Then you risk being stuck with the same grad student, who now resents that you got him in trouble.

Welcome to academia, where there are few rules and often very little professionalism.

My advice would be to look at this as a chance to maybe learn a little bit and have something to put on your resume. It's unlikely you're going to get any serious research done as an undergrad in a large university lab.

[curiouscat]

If really doing hands on stuff is your goal, one workaround is to find a real new Prof. with a tiny group he's just starting. Those guys really need all the help they can get.

Downside: You won't have a fancy name on your Resume.

[mushaboom]

Thank you both for your helpful replies. I'm just a little concerned but I'm sure things will get at least somewhat better. My GS isn't a bad guy, he's just not all that personable for the time being. Actually, I think that goes for most of the members in my group, haha.

My professor is actually the newest in the department, but he's got a "rising star" status and a lot of grant money so his lab is one of the biggest. I guess I should have thought about that before joining, but I'll just have to give it some more time.

On the subject of group meetings... when/how do these get better? Every time I go to one I feel like I'm a transfer student at a new high school who has no one to talk to at lunch... and lunch is 2 hours long. I don't know what to make of the new scientific literature they're talking about and I doubt my classes will be teaching the information necessary to understand them anytime soon, but the other undergrads seem to be following along at least. How do you become more proficient at this stuff?

[curiouscat]

On the subject of group meetings... when/how do these get better? Every time I go to one I feel like I'm a transfer student at a new high school who has no one to talk to at lunch... and lunch is 2 hours long. I don't know what to make of the new scientific literature they're talking about and I doubt my classes will be teaching the information necessary to understand them anytime soon, but the other undergrads seem to be following along at least. How do you become more proficient at this stuff?

What year of your undergrad is this?

I'd say, read more papers. Past papers from the group help. Be brave and ask what you didn't understand in those papers. It's rare and lucky to have access to the guys who actually wrote the paper you are reading.

Personally, I think start by getting rid of the misconception that "my classes will be teaching the information necessary to understand them". They never will. Not even in grad school.

Journal articles are a new ball game. You'll rarely be equipped by a class to understand them fully & seamlessly. Treat them like a puzzle you are trying to grok.  Trust your intellect. Do some analytical reading. Be willing to look up stuff you don't understand. Accept that you'll only really understand  maybe 30% of most papers. On a good day. Don't let that frustrate you.

[Corribus]

Actually, I think that goes for most of the members in my group, haha.

Welcome to science. Very few of us have any social graces.

On the subject of group meetings... when/how do these get better?

Never. Group meetings suck, period. I've had more fun watching paint dry.

[curiouscat]

On the subject of group meetings... when/how do these get better?

Never. Group meetings suck, period. I've had more fun watching paint dry.

  My boss (grad school advisor) seemed to love em.  I never understood that.  I assumed once you become a professor you like em? Apparantly not, @corribus, eh? 

We had ours at the end of the day and most everyone was antsy to leave but the guy was totally in his element asking away questions merrily while everyone else fiddled with his / her pens. 

[mushaboom]

On the subject of group meetings... when/how do these get better? Every time I go to one I feel like I'm a transfer student at a new high school who has no one to talk to at lunch... and lunch is 2 hours long. I don't know what to make of the new scientific literature they're talking about and I doubt my classes will be teaching the information necessary to understand them anytime soon, but the other undergrads seem to be following along at least. How do you become more proficient at this stuff?

What year of your undergrad is this?

I'm a second year. And yeah, I figured since research is new I wouldn't be taught this stuff but man I hate feeling like such a scrub. My GS gave me a book on transition elements and organic synthesis and it takes me about 30 minutes to get through a paragraph 

[Corribus]

My boss (grad school advisor) seemed to love em.  I never understood that.  I assumed once you become a professor you like em? Apparantly not, @corribus, eh? 

I'm not a university professor, but if I was, no way would I subject people to meetings that long. 1 hour tops. 1/2 hour for research summary, 1/2 hour for journal club. Done.

Ours were on Friday afternoons at 4 o'clock. Sometimes they would go on for 2.5 hours or more. By that time I was ready to claw my eyes out, anything to make the pain go away. There was a reason we had bourbon club right after it was over.

[kriggy]

Thank you both for your helpful replies. I'm just a little concerned but I'm sure things will get at least somewhat better. My GS isn't a bad guy, he's just not all that personable for the time being. Actually, I think that goes for most of the members in my group, haha.

My professor is actually the newest in the department, but he's got a "rising star" status and a lot of grant money so his lab is one of the biggest. I guess I should have thought about that before joining, but I'll just have to give it some more time.

On the subject of group meetings... when/how do these get better? Every time I go to one I feel like I'm a transfer student at a new high school who has no one to talk to at lunch... and lunch is 2 hours long. I don't know what to make of the new scientific literature they're talking about and I doubt my classes will be teaching the information necessary to understand them anytime soon, but the other undergrads seem to be following along at least. How do you become more proficient at this stuff?

Well, I think the best you can is to read the literature they are talking about and try to understand whats going on there. At least the reasons why they are doing this stuff. Maybe consult the reactions in the paper with someone / or with book.
You said transition metals and organic synthesis? Im doing same / similar stuff.
Maybe try to ask your grad student "can I try this?" when he shows you what is he doing.
btw reading a paragraph for 30 mins is nothing unheard of I think. It will get better over time