[mach80]

Hi,
  I have been experimenting with a simple fermentation process in which sucrose gets converted into a very reactive chemical.The chemical readily and quickly reacts with sodium chloride both in solid and solution form releasing a gas that is irritating to the nose.What can this  biobased chemical be?

Regards.

[Arkcon]

Greetings, mach80:, I'd like to welcome you and all the new students to the Chemical Forums.  But I'd like to ask you to trouble yourself to read our Forum Rules{click}. You already accepted them when you signed up for our forum, and they apply to you, whether you agree with them or not, or even if you're unaware of them. 

Our rules specify that we want to see your work, and then, we want to give you hints, so that you learn for yourself.  It doesn't matter if you're a new student, or a dedicated amateur, we need to know what you know, and what you think, so we know what level you're at, so we can give useful hints, so your knowledge can grow.  Posts like "I mixed this and this and this and ... now what?" don't help anyone learn anything.

Let's get started working with what you've given us.

Biobased chemical that decomposes sodium chloride

Can you define "biobased" for us?  A textbook definition, please.  Go ahead and Google the word, and when you have a definition, be certain it applies in this case.  Or, another option, leave off meaningless terms.

Sodium chloride is a very stable ionic compound.  Your title is a little loaded.  Just letting you know -- I don't know everything, but I do know when things sound strange.

Hi,
  I have been experimenting with a simple fermentation process in which sucrose gets converted into a very reactive chemical.

Can you describe this more fully for us?  I've never heard of a process like this.  Do you have a reason why you can't describe your starting points better.

The chemical readily and quickly reacts with sodium chloride both in solid and solution form releasing a gas that is irritating to the nose.

Can you tell us more about this chemical?  What state is it in?  If its something in solution, then maybe it makes no difference if the NaCl is solid or solution, since the NaCl always in solution when you add your chemical.  Did you not realize that?  Why not?

What can this  biobased chemical be?

Lets work together, to try and figure it out.

[wildfyr]

This must be one spicy meatball if it reacts with NaCl to give what sounds like chlorine gas.

[mach80]

Biobased chemical is a product of a biological process.In  this case,the chemical in question is biobased since it is produced when michrobes convert sucrose during fermentation.The chemical is in solution state  straight from the fermentation broth.Yes sodium chloride is stable but when you mix it with this chemical yo will witnes a very rapid reaction accompanied with the release of a lot of gas.

[mach80]

Let me describe the fermentation process.The process is simple.It involves,dissolving sucrose in fresh water,pour in a container,add in the microbes and seal it.It takes at least 3 days for the chemical to be ready for use.My experiments are usually small scale.I use a 500ml plastic bottle in which i fill with 800ml of fresh water and dissolve in  1 tea spoonfull of sucrose then add in a few drops of the solution containing  the microbes.I then seal the bottle and wait for fermentation to proceed.No alcohol is produced during fermentation.

[mach80]

Thanks forum for your views on my topic.I contacted a fermentation expert who is of the view that the chemical being produced by the microbes  during  fermentation is HNO3.Sucrose is used as an energy source by the microbes and is not a feedstock.

[billnotgatez]

@mach80
Would it be that nitrogen from the air is converted to HNO₃ by the microbes?
Would the microbe be one of the Nitrosomonas?

[ablake]

Hi @mach80

This is really interesting. Can you elaborate a bit more on what type of microbes you are using? Are they anaerobic, what is their natural environment, etc.?

If this is unknown, have you thought about sequencing, or sending the fermentation product off for analysis?

I have heard of microbes that convert ammonia to HNO3, but not sucrose. Maybe you have a combination of microbes that are performing different fermentation reactions?

[mach80]

To answer Billnotgatez: When you add these microbes into a dilute solution of sodium carbonate in a plastic bottle with enough air,after about 24 hours the bottle starts collapsing inward as a result of microbes sucking up air.With more time the pungent smell of ammonia increases in the bottle.So from that observation I suspect the microbes are capable of fixing nitrogen directly from air.

To answer ablake: I think am dealing with ammonia oxidising microbes.To prove that, I reduced the amount of sucrose in the fermentation solution and when the fermentation reaction stopped,I added a small  solution of  ammonia into the fermenting solution and found that the fermentation reaction restarts and the result is an increase in the concentration of  HNO3 (assuming it is the chemical being produced)

The microbes I  use thrive in basic environments and so are likely to be  fucultative alkaliphilles.

So far I have not yet taken the fermentation product for analysis.

My quastion:If the fermentation product is HNO3, Is possible that when it reacts with  NaCl  the product is NaNO3?

[Borek]

My quastion:If the fermentation product is HNO3, Is possible that when it reacts with  NaCl  the product is NaNO3?

No, that's not how it works. You get a solution of several ions, but it is not equivalent of having any particular salt.

[billnotgatez]

@mach80
From your original post

... releasing a gas that is irritating to the nose.What can this  biobased chemical be?
Regards.

In a later post

... With more time the pungent smell of ammonia increases in the bottle ...

Can we assume the smells in each case were different?
I realize that the experiments were different.

I am wondering if you have characterized the microbes using bacteriology techniques?

By the way,
I got some interesting results by using GOOGLE using

sodium chloride and nitric acid balanced equation

Also by the way
I have never been a fan of odor checking a reaction.

[mach80]

Yes indeed they are two different experiments.In the original post it is the fermentation product that reacts with  NaCl giving off an irritating gas.The production of this chemical is dependent on the availability of  ammonia.when more ammonia is added into the fermentation vessel, it dissappears showing that it has been used up in the fermentation reaction.This leads to an increase in the concentration of the fermentation product.

In the second experiment  it is only sodium carbonate and microbes are used.No sucrose is used.The observation is that the  microbes suck up air and the reaction product is ammonia.