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Offline HelloHelp100

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Another Instant Chemical Fire
« on: November 15, 2006, 02:53:27 PM »
Remember me, "Hey, me and a friend did the instant chemical fire experiment. In this experiment, you combine safe amounts( 3-4 grams) of each potassium chlorate and granulated sugar and add a couple drops of sulfuric acid. The first two times we did it, we did it in a beaker under a fume hood. However, a very small flame occured. the next two times we did it, we did it on a watch glass and we watched a wild purple fire"

This is the equation: 2KClO3(s)  —heat—>  2KCl(s)  +  3O2(g)  , sulfuric acid is a spectator, and sugar is a catalyst in the form of energy so they do not appear in the chemical equation.

I have a couple more questions:
1. Why was their white smoke? Carbon was not apart of either the reactants or the products.
2. What were the black left overs? Was it burnt KCl, because that is what KClO3 decomposes into. Were they sugar or potassium chlorate. Both were originally white.
3. A combustion reaction took place, because there was a fire. however, the above reaction accounts for only what happened to the Potassium Chlorate. Why did O2 escape from that?
4. Are their any alternate chemicals that could have been used to produce the exact same reaction? I think maganese catalysts work, and Rb and Cs instead of K would work because they produce similar wavelengths which would make a purple fire. Is this correct?
5. It is true that sugar is a catalyst for the reaction in the sense that it provided energy and accelerated the reaction, correct?
6. The above accounts only for the decomposition of potassium chlorate with heat and a catalyst. However, what are the other byproducts that occur but are not apart of the chemical equation, like CO2 and H2O? Why can't I put them in the chemical equation.

I have been searching the internet for the answers but I could not, these are personal questions I created, promise.

Thanks.

Offline constant thinker

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Re: Another Instant Chemical Fire
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2006, 06:46:12 PM »
Add concentrated sulfuric acid to sucrose (sugar). What you get is a dehydration reaction releasing lots of heat, and leaving carbon behind.
Could it be possible that the sucrose is dehydrating also? This could explain the black left overs.

White smoke is vague. I'm not so sure you could tell exactly what it is.

A catalyst is something that isn't used up in a reaction. It only allows for a reaction to take place with less energy, and it is left over after the reaction. I've never heard of sucrose being a catalyst. It could be that it dehydrated upon the addition of sulfuric acid releasing a lot of heat which is what went into the decomposition of the KClO3.
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Offline HelloHelp100

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Re: Another Instant Chemical Fire
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2006, 12:18:43 AM »
Last Question, this is my consensus, please help:

After doing extensive research, where we mixed potassium chlorate and sugar and then added sulfuric acid to produce a purple fire. So far we used the equation 2KClO3(s)  —heat—>  2KCl(s)  +  3O2(g) and said the sugar was a catalyst in the sense that it was used as a fuel to accelerate the combustion reaction. Also, we said that other fuels could replace sugar and the reaction would be the same, and sugar is just easy to use, so it does not need to be mentioned in the equation; and sulfuric acid was just a spectator. Therefore, this equation shows only the decomposition of potassium chlorate. Some sources agreed with this, but others disagreed.  Other sources have used C12H22O11(s) + 8KClO3(s) --heat-->  12CO2(g) + 11H2O(g) + 8KCl(s) + 2029 kJ  as the actual reaction, and said sugar was not a catalyst but a necessary reactant. Are we correct? Is sugar a catalyst?

Offline billnotgatez

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Re: Another Instant Chemical Fire
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2006, 06:01:31 AM »
KClO3
Potassium chlorate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_chlorate
H2SO4
Sulfuric acid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfuric_acid
C12H22O11
Sucrose
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sucrose

Flame test
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_test
Note - lilac - A pale to light or moderate purple.

Catalyst are not consumed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalyst

How To Perform the Instant Fire Chemistry Demonstration
http://chemistry.about.com/od/demonstrationsexperiments/ht/instantfire.htm
A Ph.D. wrote this and I am not impressed. In my opinion it is not complete and I am not sure about the accuracy of the explanation. This is unfortunate since I typically have a high regard for someone with a Ph.D.





-- Creating a separate post and not continuing the original post has lead to redundancy and confusion for me --
« Last Edit: November 16, 2006, 06:29:45 AM by billnotgatez »

Offline lemonoman

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Re: Another Instant Chemical Fire
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2006, 01:56:53 AM »
How To Perform the Instant Fire Chemistry Demonstration
http://chemistry.about.com/od/demonstrationsexperiments/ht/instantfire.htm
A Ph.D. wrote this and I am not impressed. In my opinion it is not complete and I am not sure about the accuracy of the explanation. This is unfortunate since I typically have a high regard for someone with a Ph.D.

Typically, About.com articles, I find, are laden with mistaken, inaccuracies, and problems.  A lot of them just spew out 'common knowledge' or 'popular opinion' - not necessarily what's really true.

Offline constant thinker

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Re: Another Instant Chemical Fire
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2006, 04:58:56 PM »
My personal opinion is that the way you did it, the sugar is part of the reaction. If anything is a catalyst, it would have to be sulfuric acid because it was not consumed. It was only hydrated.

If you had just done this reaction with just placing the potassium chlorate in a test tube, and then used a bunsen burner, I'd say your original reaction equation explains everything that happened.

As a side note, flame tests are pretty cool. Take a small sample of a metal salt, and put into a flame (looks best in a darkened room).
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' " -Ronald Reagan

"I'm for anything that gets you through the night, be it prayer, tranquilizers, or a bottle of Jack Daniels." -Frank Sinatra

Offline billnotgatez

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Re: Another Instant Chemical Fire
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2006, 03:48:59 AM »
Is this correct?

8KClO3(s) + C12H22O11(s)  ——H2SO4——>
8KCl(s) + 12O2(g) + heat + C12H22O11(s)   —————>
2KCl(v){violet color} + 12CO2(g)  + 11H2O(v) 


Offline Donaldson Tan

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Re: Another Instant Chemical Fire
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2006, 02:09:55 PM »
How To Perform the Instant Fire Chemistry Demonstration
http://chemistry.about.com/od/demonstrationsexperiments/ht/instantfire.htm
A Ph.D. wrote this and I am not impressed. In my opinion it is not complete and I am not sure about the accuracy of the explanation. This is unfortunate since I typically have a high regard for someone with a Ph.D.

The author has a BS in physics and a PhD in Biomedical Science.
"Say you're in a [chemical] plant and there's a snake on the floor. What are you going to do? Call a consultant? Get a meeting together to talk about which color is the snake? Employees should do one thing: walk over there and you step on the friggin� snake." - Jean-Pierre Garnier, CEO of Glaxosmithkline, June 2006

Offline billnotgatez

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Re: Another Instant Chemical Fire
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2006, 12:11:01 PM »
Would anyone like to confirm or refute my formula?

Is this correct?

8KClO3(s) + C12H22O11(s)  ——H2SO4——>
8KCl(s) + 12O2(g) + heat + C12H22O11(s)   —————>
2KCl(v){violet color} + 12CO2(g)  + 11H2O(v) 



Offline Gerard

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Re: Another Instant Chemical Fire
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2006, 06:21:46 AM »
How To Perform the Instant Fire Chemistry Demonstration
http://chemistry.about.com/od/demonstrationsexperiments/ht/instantfire.htm
A Ph.D. wrote this and I am not impressed. In my opinion it is not complete and I am not sure about the accuracy of the explanation. This is unfortunate since I typically have a high regard for someone with a Ph.D.

The author has a BS in physics and a PhD in Biomedical Science.
i envy that person i wanted to have attain a PhD in biomedical engineering but as of now i ,must pass my undergrad course!
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Offline billnotgatez

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Re: Another Instant Chemical Fire
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2006, 11:40:58 PM »
I found a typo, a 2 should have been 8

8KClO3(s) + C12H22O11(s)  ——H2SO4——>
8KCl(s) + 12O2(g) + heat + C12H22O11(s)   —————>
8KCl(v){violet color} + 12CO2(g)  + 11H2O(v) 

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