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Offline Greenport

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Electrochemistry question
« on: May 01, 2008, 07:57:25 AM »
Say one sets up an electrolysis chamber for the purpose of splitting apart either molten table salt or an aqueous solution of it...

When the NaCl comes into contact with the cathode, the Na(+) will be attracted to the cathode and break off of the Cl(-).

Or in the same way, when the ion comes into contact with the anode, the Cl(-) would go to the anode and the Na(+) breaks off.

What concerns me is what happens after the molecules split apart. Do they travel to the other electrode? or are they just released right where they are?

For instance, if the NaCl hits the cathode, of course the Na(+) will stay there but will the Cl(-) somehow find its way to the anode? Or does it just stay in the same chamber? (And why or why not?)

If that is the case then couldn't positively or negatively charged atoms be transferred over long distances electrically in this manner, as long as there was a current?

Offline Arkcon

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Re: Electrochemistry question
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2008, 08:21:57 AM »
In aqueous solution or molten, you can assume the Na+ and Cl- ions are already apart, and swimming, if you will, freely.  But the electrolysis adds something to the mix, that just dissolving or melting doesn't, do you know what that is?  And what reaction takes place?
Hey, I'm not judging.  I just like to shoot straight.  I'm a man of science.

Offline Greenport

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Re: Electrochemistry question
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2008, 05:50:40 PM »
Thanks for your comment. That does help me a little to understand how it works. I believe that the reaction you are speaking of is a redox (reduction and oxidation), but other than electricity (and perhaps hydrogen & oxygen) Im not sure what else is added.

So in your explanation where they are already broken apart (that makes sense to me, since, they'd be dissolved in that case), does that mean that both Sodium and Chlorine would be released into BOTH chambers?

Offline Borek

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Re: Electrochemistry question
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2008, 06:00:59 PM »
Yep, at the same time. Current flows which means electrons have to go past the electrode/solution or electrode/molten salt phase boundary. It means chemical reaction (reduction/oxidation) happening - and you will always need two simultaneous reactions to keep your solution/molten salt electrically neutral.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2008, 06:50:28 PM by Borek »
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Offline Greenport

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Re: Electrochemistry question
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2008, 06:07:32 PM »
Then how is it that electrolysis of water (with an electrolyte in it of course) yields Hydrogen gas on one end and Oxygen gas on the other?

Offline Arkcon

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Re: Electrochemistry question
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2008, 06:12:38 PM »
Then how is it that electrolysis of water (with an electrolyte in it of course) yields Hydrogen gas on one end and Oxygen gas on the other?

What is the difference between say, H+ -- one of the porducts of water's dissociation, and H2 -- the product of it's electrolysis?  What's changed, and how?

I believe that the reaction you are speaking of is a redox (reduction and oxidation), but other than electricity (and perhaps hydrogen & oxygen) Im not sure what else is added.
Can you write a red-ox reaction, using the "electricity" that's been added?  It doesn't enter as bolts of lightning, how is it added?
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Offline Greenport

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Re: Electrochemistry question
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2008, 07:12:22 PM »
Well, H+ is a cation, which (technically) wants to be reduced. However since hydrogen's orbital only has a possible two electrons, it can really go either way (and often does). Thus, hydrogen reacts with other hydrogen cations to form H2. This usually happens so quickly that we would not have free H+ hanging around very long and thus H2 would be the product.

The H2O would break apart into two free H+ cations and one O- anion. The H+ would combine to H2 and the O- molecules would combine to form O2.

And as much as I hate to say it, I really am not 100% sure what is coming out of the end of the wires then - perhaps positively and negatively charged ions of hydrogen and/or oxygen? No, that doesn't seem right.

Offline Arkcon

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Re: Electrochemistry question
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2008, 07:19:40 PM »
Well, H+ is a cation, which (technically) wants to be reduced. However since hydrogen's orbital only has a possible two electrons, it can really go either way (and often does). Thus, hydrogen reacts with other hydrogen cations to form H2. This usually happens so quickly that we would not have free H+ hanging around very long and thus H2 would be the product.

H+ + H+ --> H2 ?  Ummm...no, that's not it.

Quote
And as much as I hate to say it, I really am not 100% sure what is coming out of the end of the wires then - perhaps positively and negatively charged ions of hydrogen and/or oxygen? No, that doesn't seem right.

I realize it can be a little daunting to figure out, if the wires are corrected to a DC generator, or a rectifier.  But what if the wires used for electrolysis get the electricity from a chemical battery?  Do you know how a chemical battery works?
Hey, I'm not judging.  I just like to shoot straight.  I'm a man of science.

Offline Borek

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Offline LQ43

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Re: Electrochemistry question
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2008, 10:23:37 PM »
Then how is it that electrolysis of water (with an electrolyte in it of course) yields Hydrogen gas on one end and Oxygen gas on the other?



The H2O would break apart into two free H+ cations and one O- anion. The H+ would combine to H2 and the O- molecules would combine to form O2.


You are on the right track with thinking about the oxidation - reduction of water to produce H2 and O2 gas. But as Borek has hinted, the dissociation of water is very small, so WHY would H2O break apart to give ions to produce these gases? In oxidation - reduction reactions, what is transferred?

Please think about Arkon's question and the meaning of current or electricity

It doesn't enter as bolts of lightning, how is it added?


Do you have a standard reduction potential table in your textbook? It might make more sense to you as you understand the above



Offline Borek

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Re: Electrochemistry question
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2008, 04:14:18 AM »
You are on the right track with thinking about the oxidation - reduction of water to produce H2 and O2 gas. But as Borek has hinted, the dissociation of water is very small, so WHY would H2O break apart to give ions to produce these gases?

First of all I was hinting to the fact that water dissociation is not producing 2H+ and O2- :)
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Offline Greenport

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Re: Electrochemistry question
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2008, 09:44:17 PM »
oy' well I'm reading some chapters on this topic to get more info..

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