[Wine Guy]

I am a wine maker, not a chemist.  Acidity is an important factor in wine making.  Sanitizers are commonly used in wine making and it may be possible for residual sanitizer to get into the wine.  I am trying to determine the effect of an acid based sanitizer on wine acidity so the wine can be adjusted or perhaps change to a different sanitizer.  The sanitizer contains Dodecylbenzenesulfonic Acid (D Acid) and Phosphoric Acid (P Acid).  My assumption is that a maximum of 118ml of sanitizer solution could get into 23 liters of wine.  The 118 ml contains .133g of D Acid and .425g of P Acid.  Thus, each liter (23 total) can contain .006g of D Acid and .018g of P Acid.  The wine's acidity without the sanitizer is .60% (0.060g/L) and the PH is 3.5. 

My layman's calculation is that acidity would increase to .0846/L (.060 + .006 + .018).  But obviously that does not take into account the specific acids.  Please help.

[Hunter2]

It has not much impact. The acidity is given by the phosphoric acid. 0,425 g in 23 l is as calculated 0,018 g/l. What means it is 0,018 g/l/98 g/mol = 0,00184 mol/l . Assuming we talk only about the first Hydrogen of the Phosphoric acid it is 3,7 pH. Your wine has already a pH 3,5, so there will be not much change. The D acid is a weak acid and  give  a  pH of 4,75, if assuming 100% dissociation what I don't believe. I don't have pKa value at that moment.

PS: Do you work in Napa valley?

[Wine Guy]

Thanks for your prompt reply.  I want to make certain my understanding of what you're saying is correct.  In effect, adding 100% phosphoric acid, pH 3.7 to wine (in this Cabernet with a pH of 3.5) would have a modest impact - actually decreasing acidity - on the wine.  Adding the D Acid would decrease acidity further.

But what about the acidity %, which would change from 0.060 g/L? Does this have an impact?

By the way, I am not a commercial wine make maker, I am an amateur.  However, I make approx. 1,000 bottles per year, approx 200 gallons.

[Babcock_Hall]

Hunter2, Generally sulfonic acids are strong acids.  IIRC para-toluenesulfonic acid has a pK_a near -6.  However, if this compound were added in the form of its sodium or potassium salt, then there should not be much effect on pH.

[Hunter2]

Its not 100% Phosphoric. Its 0,425g in 23 l. Its a spoon of this. This small amount would give if the 23 l would be only water pH 3.7. So your wine is already more acidic pH 3.5. The phosphoric will not change much. The same with the Acid D which would have even a higher pH. Your wine contains more acid as the chemicals what you add.

[Hunter2]

Hunter2, Generally sulfonic acids are strong acids.  IIRC para-toluenesulfonic acid has a pKa near -6.  However, if this compound were added in the form of its sodium or potassium salt, then there should not be much effect on pH.

I am wondering if Dodecylbenzesulfonic acid is still solouble enough.

[Wine Guy]

Its not 100% Phosphoric. Its 0,425g in 23 l. Its a spoon of this. This small amount would give if the 23 l would be only water pH 3.7. So your wine is already more acidic pH 3.5. The phosphoric will not change much. The same with the Acid D which would have even a higher pH. Your wine contains more acid as the chemicals what you add.

Hunter thanks to you and others.  What I'm trying to say is ,425g of 100% - not diluted, but concentrated - Phosphoric Acid is added to the wine.  My understanding from the research I did prior to asking is that Phosporic Acid is a weak acid, but one of the strongest of those.  But I'm fine with the answer.

[Babcock_Hall]

The sanitizer contains Dodecylbenzenesulfonic Acid (D Acid) and Phosphoric Acid (P Acid).  My assumption is that a maximum of 118ml of sanitizer solution could get into 23 liters of wine.  The 118 ml contains .133g of D Acid and .425g of P Acid.  Thus, each liter (23 total) can contain .006g of D Acid and .018g of P Acid.

Wine Guy, Does the description of the D acid say anything about a sodium or potassium salt?

[Wine Guy]

The sanitizer contains Dodecylbenzenesulfonic Acid (D Acid) and Phosphoric Acid (P Acid).  My assumption is that a maximum of 118ml of sanitizer solution could get into 23 liters of wine.  The 118 ml contains .133g of D Acid and .425g of P Acid.  Thus, each liter (23 total) can contain .006g of D Acid and .018g of P Acid.

Wine Guy, Does the description of the D acid say anything about a sodium or potassium salt?

There's nothing available beyond the name.

[billnotgatez]

@Wine Guy
As a citizen science supporter I am glad you are participating in the forum.

One thing you can do to assist in the discussion is to give the product name and product company you are using. Many products have a MSDS (material safety data sheet) which may supply us with the exact chemical composition.

I, as a person who has studied the process of brewing and wine making, but not practice it very much, I am confused by your post. I had always thought that the sanitizer was used as a final wash to the containers and equipment during the process of making wine etc. Therefore there should at worse (or best) be only a coating of sanitizer, which seems to me to be miniscule as compared to the amount of product. So, there should be little effect.

Additionally, from what I read the use of sanitizers and yeast halting compounds are routinely used in ethanol beverage production by many with no reported effect.

Am I missing something?

As and aside,
I hope you stick with us and give advice during brewing and wine making discussions. I, for one, am going to try to make some mead as my first project.
 

[schmidling]

As a brand new subscriber, I was reluctant to jump in to ask why and also more interested in my current quest of soap making.

However, I have made wine and beer for decades and was a bit mystified by the question for the same reason.  To me, sanitizing has meant sloshing some bleach around in the keg or fermentor and rinsing seriously.  By the time I can no longer smell the bleach in the empty vessel, what is left is so diluted by the product that it's not worth thinking about.

If wine is aged in wooden barrels, I suppose there is the additional possibility of absorption by the wood I think it would tend to stay there.

Jack Schmidling

[billnotgatez]

What is the name and manufacturer of the acid sanitizer.
Is it STAR SAN

based on these instructions only a coating will be on the equipment.
http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/StarSanTech5.pdf
and they say to dilute it to 300 ppm

I am curious as to what you think of the Iodine stuff.

[curiouscat]

  My assumption is that a maximum of 118ml of sanitizer solution could get into 23 liters of wine.

You think that that much  of residual liquid remains?

[Arkcon]

  My assumption is that a maximum of 118ml of sanitizer solution could get into 23 liters of wine.

You think that that much  of residual liquid remains?

Even so (and has been mentioned upthread) 118 ml into 23000 ml is a very small number.  The calculations for the contribution of the sanitizer acid in the bulk of the solution is not simple to figure out, although likely to be trivial.  Whether the flavor is affected, not by acid, but by sanitizing flavor is another matter.