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Topic: Unknown reaction of conjugation formation  (Read 3631 times)

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Offline Rutherford

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Unknown reaction of conjugation formation
« on: September 14, 2013, 01:31:52 PM »
How does the reaction leading from G to H in the presence of KNH2/NH3 proceed?

I think it is H elimination form the C atom that has a methyl group bonded to it, migration of π bond and then the carbanion takes a hydrogen from ammonia. Correct?

Offline discodermolide

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Re: Unknown reaction of conjugation formation
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2013, 01:52:21 PM »
Rather than carbanion chemistry I think you should consider the formation of radicals causing the bond migration.
KNH2/NH3 as far as I remember is a source of electrons.
Think Birch reduction.
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Offline Rutherford

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Re: Unknown reaction of conjugation formation
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2013, 03:37:05 PM »
But one C atom has to switch from sp3 to sp2 while in Birch is the opposite. Can't think of the radical mechanism.

Offline discodermolide

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Re: Unknown reaction of conjugation formation
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2013, 10:27:04 PM »
Try breaking the C-H bond by moving single electrons around same with the C=C.
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Offline Rutherford

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Re: Unknown reaction of conjugation formation
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2013, 04:17:59 AM »
Thank you. But this doesn't seem as Birch reduction, nothing is reduced here. Is this a special case or another named reaction?

Offline discodermolide

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Re: Unknown reaction of conjugation formation
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2013, 05:36:58 AM »
Surely G is the intermediate in a Birch reduction??
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Offline Rutherford

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Re: Unknown reaction of conjugation formation
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2013, 10:30:49 AM »
There was an aromatic ring, then Li/NH3 were added and G was produced. Afterwards, KNH2/NH3 were added. The first reaction was Birch, the second can't be?

Offline discodermolide

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Re: Unknown reaction of conjugation formation
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2013, 11:23:07 AM »
I said it looks like an intermediate in a Birch reduction, which it is.
The second reaction is an isomerisation to give a more stable conjugated system.
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Offline Rutherford

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Re: Unknown reaction of conjugation formation
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2013, 12:02:44 PM »
Sorry, didn't understand you. Thank you for the help.

Offline orgopete

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Re: Unknown reaction of conjugation formation
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2013, 01:44:03 PM »
Rather than carbanion chemistry I think you should consider the formation of radicals causing the bond migration.
KNH2/NH3 as far as I remember is a source of electrons.
Think Birch reduction.

This is not a Birch or Birch-like reaction. It is simply a base catalyzed tautomerization.
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Offline Rutherford

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Re: Unknown reaction of conjugation formation
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2013, 02:01:11 PM »
Tautomerization doesn't occur by a free-radical mechanism, but rather the one I proposed first. Now I am confused  ???.

Offline spirochete

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Re: Unknown reaction of conjugation formation
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2013, 03:26:45 PM »
Yes you were totally correct in the beginning. Orgopete confirmed you were correct.  I think somebody else was confused when they proposed a birch, and/or radical type mechanism.

The fact that a molecule is a product of some reaction does not tell you how it will act as a substrate for a different set of reaction conditions.

Calling an acid base reaction an "H elimination" in your original post is an imprecise use of language, though. That could mean H+, H minus or H radical. Usually simply saying "H" is used to mean hydrogen radical. It's better to say "proton removal" or "H+ abstraction or something like that.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 04:03:31 PM by spirochete »

Offline Rutherford

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Re: Unknown reaction of conjugation formation
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2013, 06:39:08 AM »
Okay, thank you. Yeah, I didn't think too much about language here ::).

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