[Doc.AElstein]

Polyole and Alcohol and DMAE Dimethylaminoethanol

Hi,
 I apologise that this is a dumb question for many of you. But I have no chemistry background

_ 1) Some  confirmation please. ( or any comments )
_ 1(i) I think I am correct in saying “Alcohol” ( as in Beer etc.! ) is most generally the “Alcohol” referred to in Nutritional Information when the word “Alcohol” is seen . This has approximately 7 Kcal /g. It is that which one often sees in Published general Nutritional Lists?
_ 1(ii) Similarly on “low Carb” products such as sport protein bars etc, the Polyhydric alcohols are  something else and have approximately 2.4 Kcal / g . Whilst given on Labels the Polyhydric alcohols I believe is not given generally in more genera nutritional tables  that are Published ?
_ 1 (iii) The word “Polyols or Polyole” I typically come across when referring to this Low carb “thing”. I have this in a group which I loosely call “Sauerstoffe  Oxygen Reaction Group “. There I have  Under groups of things like Hydroxyl Groups and there I have the things like (Primary ) Alkanols, Ethanol, . then come the Polyhydric alcohols..  I guess this is as good as anywhere for a very broad / general List of “Things”

_ 2) Regarding DMAE Dimethylaminoethanol.
_ 2 (i) Would this better be described as close to Alcohol. I am guessing this (apologise if naively)  from the part “Ethanol” in its full name. Ethanol , I believe,  is the more correct word for what we, in terms of Beer etc, refer to as  “Alcohol”.
_ 2(ii) I am encountering DMAE in Food supplements and therefore am I correct in assuming it would have 7 Kcal / g. Or does this fall into a grey area of Ethanol like products which the body may not be able to utilise for energy in the same way that it doesthe Ethanol in Beer. -  By Goggling I see a lot of pictures of Fish. So I am thinking in this case it could be a product we would utilise normally to produce energy.
_ 2(iii) For want of anywhere better, I dropped DMAE right next to Ethanol in my “List of things”. I guess this is as good as anywhere ?. Unless I am missing some fundamental ( big ) difference ( in Layman terms ) between Alcohol and DMAE ?


Thank you
Alan Elston

[Hunter2]

Alcohols generally described with an organic carbon rest and the Hydroxylgroup. The most known compound is Ethyl-alcohol or Ethanol CH₃CH₂OH.

Also your Dimethylaminoethanol is an alcohol with an second functional group. Here an Methylsubstitutet Amino-group. (CH₃)₂NCH₂CH₂OH

Polyole are bigger molecules with a lot of OH-Groups.  Like Mannit: HOCH₂(CHOH)₄CH₂OH
or Polmers like Polyvinylalcohol (CH₂CHOH)_n

[Doc.AElstein]

Hi Hunter2,
  Thanks for the info and reply.
  As I mentioned I am a Laymen. So the info is a bit technical for me. I am trying to get the best overall general understanding
  But I think from your info I can glean  the following:

 _ 1 ) I think I am seeing I have these things listed sufficiently around Hydroxyl groupings.

 _ 2 )  Your „Polyole are bigger molecules with a lot of OH-Groups“ is possibly tying up with what I have been seeing and reading. I somehow thought it had 3  “connections” and was a Sugar alcohol and many sweeteners were a type of this.  I am not sure if this is confirming then my approximately 2.4 Kcal / g here ? ( I come across Mannit also occasionally. I guess you are saying that Mannit  would fit in here also. ?

 _ 3)  I think possibly you are confirming my approximately 7 Kcal /g for the Alcohols / Ethanol  and generally described as having 1 „connection“

_ 4 ) As for DMAE.  I am a bit confused now. I was reading things like primary alcohol. And thinking in simple terms that it had 1 „connection“. I am possibly reading in your "second functional group" that this lies somewhere “in between” the other two, ( with 2 „connections“ ? ) .  I am not sure then if I should be considering then approx ( (2.4 + 7 ) / 2 ) Kcal/g, that is to say approx 4.7 Kcal 7g ? Or there may be something else coming into play to suggest a different value all together ?.

 I Apologise that I  am using laymen terms that may appear odd to you. I do not have the benefit of a Chemistry background, but need to try and understand as much as possible from the chemistry, in particularly with reference to their uses in Nutritional supplements ( all for an important  private unfunded project )

Thanks again for taking the time to reply.
Alan

[Intanjir]

Ethanol is the only substance intended by the 7 Kcal/g estimate. Many, many substances have alcohol groups, so the category of is more than a bit fuzzy. I think that a substance is most likely to be referred to as an alcohol when it has an -OH and when there isn't some more descriptive category to place it under. I think this is essentially the same as Hunter2's characterization. In any case the body doesn't treat all alcohols the same. The category is very diverse. So using 7Kcal/g for anything other than ethanol is a bad idea.
"Polyhydric alcohols" are generally referred to as sugar alcohols. They have varying calorie density so you have to look up the value for each different one. However if you have no idea which sugar alcohol you have then 2.4Kcal/g doesn't seem like a terrible estimate judging from the table on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_alcohol.

DMEA is what you get when you remove one methyl from choline. I would group it with choline. I would guess the body would convert it to dimethylglycine or it would incorporate it into a phospholipid and add a methyl to it to make a phosphatidylcholine.

[Doc.AElstein]

Hi Intanjir,
  Thanks as always for your contribution. Appreciate it
_..

Ethanol is the only substance intended by the 7 Kcal/g estimate. Many, many substances have alcohol groups, so the category of is more than a bit fuzzy. I think that a substance is most likely to be referred to as an alcohol when it has an -OH and when there isn't some more descriptive category to place it under. I think this is essentially the same as Hunter2's characterization. In any case the body doesn't treat all alcohols the same. The category is very diverse. So using 7Kcal/g for anything other than ethanol is a bad idea.

OK I follow all that, helps clarify my ideas a bit there. Thanks.

_..

 

"Polyhydric alcohols" are generally referred to as sugar alcohols. They have varying calorie density so you have to look up the value for each different one. However if you have no idea which sugar alcohol you have then 2.4Kcal/g doesn't seem like a terrible estimate judging from the table on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_alcohol.

Yes, I have noticed the large variation. If I use 2.4, then hopefully it will balance itself out ( BTW , the link did not work for me, but I expect this may be the same ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_alcohol -  might just be my computer.. )
_..

.
DMEA is what you get when you remove one methyl from choline. I would group it with choline. I would guess the body would convert it to dimethylglycine or it would incorporate it into a phospholipid and add a methyl to it to make a phosphatidylcholine.

I would never  of thought it as being near choline – I thought it seemed to fit nicely as a ““in between” the other two, ( it having 2 „connections“ rather than 1 or 3 as in the other cases. ). So I will have another think about that. ( Choline I have down in a Phytosterol group currently.

Sound like my  having 2 „connections “Polyhydric alcohol” was a bit naive. And as such maybe I am in a grey area again trying to guess
some “middle” Polyhydric alcohols value initially of about 4, 
Or
trying to get the bit of phospholipid that is relevant here then , then it will be some fraction of 9.  So maybe initially staying around 4.
 Or
an average of 4 and zero, as it might not be used at all as Energy...   

All a bit of hit and miss. But never the less based on a bit of thinking... in a roundabout sort of a way .. Lol...

Thans again
Alan and Petra