December 21, 2024, 08:32:44 PM
Forum Rules: Read This Before Posting


Topic: pH, is this possible?  (Read 10457 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Demotivator

  • Guest
pH, is this possible?
« on: August 09, 2004, 12:07:07 PM »
Conventional wisdom has ph ranging from 0 to 14, but

pH + pOH = 14
Is it possible to have ph > 14 if pOH is negative?
ie. > 1 M OH solution .

Offline movies

  • Organic Minion
  • Retired Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1973
  • Mole Snacks: +222/-21
  • Gender: Male
  • Better living through chemistry!
Re:pH, is this possible?
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2004, 12:42:19 PM »
Sure, it's possible.  You just have to find something soluble enough in water.

Remember that pH is defined as -log [H+] (or for pOH, -log [OH-] )

So you would need an [H+] greater than 1 M.  That's not hard to do with HCl or H2SO4.  Concentrated HCl is about 12 M for a pH of about -1.1 (pOH of ~15.1).
« Last Edit: August 09, 2004, 12:42:54 PM by movies »

Demotivator

  • Guest
Re:pH, is this possible?
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2004, 01:17:14 PM »
Ok, thanks. But although theoretically possible it may or may not be practically.
Molar concentrations are quick and dirty alternatives to activities. At high concentrations, the activity coefficients may reduce appreciably, no?
I just thought of that!

Offline movies

  • Organic Minion
  • Retired Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1973
  • Mole Snacks: +222/-21
  • Gender: Male
  • Better living through chemistry!
Re:pH, is this possible?
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2004, 05:55:30 PM »
You wouldn't be departing far from the accuracy of the concentration approximation if you had a 2 M solution of HCl, and that's enough to get you a negative pH.  They sell pH paper that can measure in the negative pH range.

I'm not even sure that the activity necessarily has an effect here, since the pH is defined by the concentration.  I guess it could have an effect if you had so little water that the HCl wasn't actually dissociating.  That's probably hard to do though.  Concentrated HCl is only 37% HCl (remainder water), so I doubt you're even approaching that situation with 12 M conc. HCl.

budullewraagh

  • Guest
Re:pH, is this possible?
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2004, 07:23:39 PM »
Quote
Concentrated HCl is only 37% HCl (remainder water), so I doubt you're even approaching that situation with 12 M conc. HCl.
unless it's supersaturated like mine:)

Offline AWK

  • Retired Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7976
  • Mole Snacks: +555/-93
  • Gender: Male
Re:pH, is this possible?
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2004, 01:38:55 AM »
I'm not even sure that the activity necessarily has an effect here, since the pH is defined by the concentration.  I guess it could have an effect if you had so little water that the HCl wasn't actually dissociating.  That's probably hard to do though.  Concentrated HCl is only 37% HCl (remainder water), so I doubt you're even approaching that situation with 12 M concHCl.
77 % HCl shows density of 1.185 and its molar concentration is in fact about 12 M.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2004, 01:39:31 AM by AWK »
AWK

Offline movies

  • Organic Minion
  • Retired Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1973
  • Mole Snacks: +222/-21
  • Gender: Male
  • Better living through chemistry!
Re:pH, is this possible?
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2004, 12:06:18 PM »
77%?  Are you sure that's correct?  I just looked in the Aldrich catalog and they list a 37 wt % solution in water, with a density of 1.2 g/mL.

Suppose 100 mL of solution
100 mL * 1.2 g/mL = 120 g of soln
120 g of soln. * .37 (g HCl/g soln) = 44.4 g HCl
44.4 g HCl / 36.46 g/mol HCl = 1.22 mol HCl
1.22 mol / 0.1 L = 12.2 M HCl

Did I make a mistake?

Offline AWK

  • Retired Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7976
  • Mole Snacks: +555/-93
  • Gender: Male
Re:pH, is this possible?
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2004, 03:00:23 AM »
Of course, it should be 37%. It is evident printing error. My fault.
AWK

Sponsored Links