November 24, 2024, 12:37:22 PM
Forum Rules: Read This Before Posting


Topic: equilibrium-constant equation reference values  (Read 8873 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

kkrizka

  • Guest
equilibrium-constant equation reference values
« on: November 04, 2005, 12:28:32 AM »
Hi there,

I am currently doing equilibrium in my Chem AP class at school and I got stuck at one point. It says that the equilibrium constant has no values because it is divided by a reference value which in case of gases and solvents is 1 atm or M. But in case of pure liquids and solids it is the same as the mass/volume. I don't really understand why this is needed as the book dosn't go much into detail.

Offline Mitch

  • General Chemist
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5298
  • Mole Snacks: +376/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • "I bring you peace." -Mr. Burns
    • Chemistry Blog
Re:equilibrium-constant equation reference values
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2005, 12:44:51 AM »
equilibrium constant is just a fancy way of saying that the ratio of products:reactants is always the same value.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2005, 12:45:10 AM by Mitch »
Most Common Suggestions I Make on the Forums.
1. Start by writing a balanced chemical equation.
2. Don't confuse thermodynamic stability with chemical reactivity.
3. Forum Supports LaTex

kkrizka

  • Guest
Re:equilibrium-constant equation reference values
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2005, 01:05:54 AM »
So why then aren't pure solids and liquids included in the equilibrium-constant equation? They are part of the products/reactants too.

Offline Mitch

  • General Chemist
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5298
  • Mole Snacks: +376/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • "I bring you peace." -Mr. Burns
    • Chemistry Blog
Re:equilibrium-constant equation reference values
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2005, 01:29:46 AM »
give example, write out the chemical equation.
Most Common Suggestions I Make on the Forums.
1. Start by writing a balanced chemical equation.
2. Don't confuse thermodynamic stability with chemical reactivity.
3. Forum Supports LaTex

Offline Donaldson Tan

  • Editor, New Asia Republic
  • Retired Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3177
  • Mole Snacks: +261/-13
  • Gender: Male
    • New Asia Republic
Re:equilibrium-constant equation reference values
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2005, 07:47:36 PM »
the concentration of a pure liquid or a pure solid is effectively the density.

the densities of solid and liquid vary negligibly with pressure and temperature. this means the concentration of the pure liquid/solid is effectively constant, and in no way will affect the concentration of other species in the system.
"Say you're in a [chemical] plant and there's a snake on the floor. What are you going to do? Call a consultant? Get a meeting together to talk about which color is the snake? Employees should do one thing: walk over there and you step on the friggin� snake." - Jean-Pierre Garnier, CEO of Glaxosmithkline, June 2006

Offline Borek

  • Mr. pH
  • Administrator
  • Deity Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27861
  • Mole Snacks: +1813/-412
  • Gender: Male
  • I am known to be occasionally wrong.
    • Chembuddy
Re:equilibrium-constant equation reference values
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2005, 08:38:54 PM »
the concentration of a pure liquid or a pure solid is effectively the density.

And not reciprocal of density? The denser the substance, the higher its amount in the volume unit, thus the higher the concentration.
ChemBuddy chemical calculators - stoichiometry, pH, concentration, buffer preparation, titrations.info

kkrizka

  • Guest
Re:equilibrium-constant equation reference values
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2005, 04:43:11 PM »
And not reciprocal of density? The denser the substance, the higher its amount in the volume unit, thus the higher the concentration.

Yeah, but then solids have the same denisty so it's concentration will be always the same. (same with liquids)

I kinda used a wrong example to ask my question. A more specific example would be "Why dosn't the eq constant have any units? For exampole (book) N2O4 <=> 2NO2 has an equation (pressures) keq=(NO2)^2/(N2O4) so (atm)^2/(atm) which results in units of atm. The book says that this unit is canceled out because each item is divided by a "reference value". Where exactly did they get this value from? "

Also since it dosn't have any units, can't we use the mass of liquid/solids instead of concentration?

Offline Donaldson Tan

  • Editor, New Asia Republic
  • Retired Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3177
  • Mole Snacks: +261/-13
  • Gender: Male
    • New Asia Republic
Re:equilibrium-constant equation reference values
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2005, 08:03:55 PM »
what "reference-value"?

the unit of equilibrium constants varies from reactions to reactions. There is no fixed unit. For gaseous reactions, we use partial pressure to denote concentration, thus the unit of the equilibrium constant for "N2O4(g) <-> 2 NO2(g)" is bar (or any other unit of pressure, eg. atm).

What is the unit of equilibrium constant for the Bon Haber Process?
N2(g) + 3H2 (g) <-> 2NH3 (g)

[K] = [bar]2/[bar]4 = [bar]-2
"Say you're in a [chemical] plant and there's a snake on the floor. What are you going to do? Call a consultant? Get a meeting together to talk about which color is the snake? Employees should do one thing: walk over there and you step on the friggin� snake." - Jean-Pierre Garnier, CEO of Glaxosmithkline, June 2006

kkrizka

  • Guest
Re:equilibrium-constant equation reference values
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2005, 11:59:20 PM »
Hmm, that's interesting. Because the book we have has an entire half a page on how the Keq has no units. This is "Chemistry: The Central Science; 9th edition" by T. Brown, H. LeMay B. Bursten and J. Burge.

Reference value is some value they use to cancelout the unit. So for the haber Process it would be:

(NH3/NH3ref)^2
-------------------
(N2/N2ref)(H2/H2ref)^3

and the reference value in all of them is 1atm.

Offline Borek

  • Mr. pH
  • Administrator
  • Deity Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27861
  • Mole Snacks: +1813/-412
  • Gender: Male
  • I am known to be occasionally wrong.
    • Chembuddy
Re:equilibrium-constant equation reference values
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2005, 05:05:36 PM »
From the termodynamical point of view you should use not concentrations but activities - which are dimensionless. Thus whole discussion should be pointless. But - as activities are seldom used - equilibrium constant has dimension.

After posting this question on some other forum (and after reading answers posted there) I suppose that your book uses these reference values just as a trick to make "equilibrium quotient" dimensionless - which is important especially when you have to take a log out of it.

Note that dividing all pressures or concentrations in the quotient by the same "reference value" equal to 1 unitofyourchoice you will remove dimension, not changing the value of the equilibrium constant.
ChemBuddy chemical calculators - stoichiometry, pH, concentration, buffer preparation, titrations.info

Sponsored Links