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Topic: Redox equation  (Read 22377 times)

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hydrowire

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Redox equation
« on: August 17, 2005, 06:46:06 AM »
allo everyone,

Consider this sentence:
In the presence of hydrogen ions, the hydroxyammonium ion, NH3OH+ will reduce iron(III) ion to iron(II) ion while the NH3OH+ ion itself will be oxidised to dinitrogen oxide.

I wrote a formula equation regarding to the above sentence:
4 Fe3+ + 2 NH3OH+ --> 4 Fe2+ + N2O + H2O + 6H+

But my chemistry teacher suggested that the hydrogen ions in my equation should be the reactants(infront of the equation) not the product. So she wrote:
Fe3+ + 2 NH3OH+  + 2H+ + 5e- --> Fe2+ + N2O + H2O + 4 H2

But I'm totally disagreed with her because as I know(might be wrong) that redox equations should not have e- (electron charge) present right? It should be cancle off in the redox equation.
Although I disagreed with her equation, I agree of what she said about the hydrogen ions. Yes it should be infront of the equation because it is a acid solution and according to the sentence "with the presence of hydrogen ions".

Anyone have any idea on this redox problem? Or maybe a better and correct equation for this?

BTW, the NH3OH+ ion came from a solution prepared by boiling 4.0 g of hydroxyammonium sulphate, (NH3OH)2SO4 per dm3  with excess iron(III) ammonium sulphate and dilute sulphuric acid.
Later this solution was titre with a solution containing 1.58 g of potassium manganate(VII) KMnO4 per 500 cm3 to determine the ratio of the number of moles of hydroxyammonium ions to the number of moles of iron(III) ions participating in the reaction.

Hope I made myself clear.
Thx in advance!

Offline Borek

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Re:Redox equation
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2005, 07:26:58 AM »
But I'm totally disagreed with her because as I know(might be wrong) that redox equations should not have e- (electron charge) present right? It should be cancle off in the redox equation.

No idea what is wrong here (and no time to investigate at the moment), but you are right - full balanced redox equation doesn't show electrons coming from nowhere. If the electrons are visible it is half-reaction, which is not the case.
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Offline sdekivit

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Re:Redox equation
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2005, 11:41:58 AM »
allo everyone,

Consider this sentence:
In the presence of hydrogen ions, the hydroxyammonium ion, NH3OH+ will reduce iron(III) ion to iron(II) ion while the NH3OH+ ion itself will be oxidised to dinitrogen oxide.


your reaction is correct.


hydrowire

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Re:Redox equation
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2005, 12:27:11 PM »
Quote
your reaction is correct.
But shouldn't the hydrogen ions be infront of the equation?
Do you mine to give some explanation of why I'm correct?

Offline sdekivit

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Re:Redox equation
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2005, 01:54:29 PM »
2 NH3OH(+) --> N2O

2 NH3OH(+) --> N2O + H2O

2 NH3OH(+) --> N2O + H2O + 6 H(+)

2 NH3OH(+) --> N2O + H2O + 6 H(+) + 4 e-

then combined with 4 Fe(3+) + 4 e- --> 4 Fe(2+) will result in your reaction equation.

Maybe the H(+) is a catalist in the reaction.


« Last Edit: August 17, 2005, 01:56:07 PM by sdekivit »

Offline Borek

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Re:Redox equation
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2005, 03:13:18 PM »
But shouldn't the hydrogen ions be infront of the equation?
Do you mine to give some explanation of why I'm correct?

You are not told they take part in the reaction - they are needed.

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Offline Yggdrasil

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Re:Redox equation
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2005, 12:03:29 AM »
An interesting side-note:

A reaction like the one described by the teacher could possibly take place in a solution of liquid ammonia as free electrons are solvated by ammonia.  Of course, this is beyond the scope of a high school course and you would not be expected to know this.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2005, 12:05:04 AM by Yggdrasil »

hydrowire

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Re:Redox equation
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2005, 02:18:58 AM »
Quote
sdekivit: Maybe the H(+) is a catalist in the reaction.

Where does the H+ ion came from? Is it from the dilute sulphuric acid that added previously?


Quote
Borek: You are not told they take part in the reaction - they are needed.

Needed as a catalyst?

Offline Mitch

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Re:Redox equation
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2005, 02:20:13 AM »
Any acid will be said to yield H+ in solution
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hydrowire

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Re:Redox equation
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2005, 02:41:53 AM »
Quote
Any acid will be said to yield H+ in solution

I know. My problem is whether the H+ ion should be involved in the equation.

Offline Borek

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Re:Redox equation
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2005, 05:21:52 AM »
Where does the H+ ion came from? Is it from the dilute sulphuric acid that added previously?

Yes. Every acid solution contains them.

Quote
Needed as a catalyst?

As sdekivit suggested.
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Offline AWK

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Re:Redox equation
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2005, 07:14:53 AM »
There is no need to use H2SO4 in the first reaction - solution containing Fe2(SO4)3 and (NH3OH)2SO4 is acidic itself because of hydrolysis of both reagents. Moreover, the sulfuric acid is produced in this reaction, but slightly more of  sulfuric acid is needed in the next step of oxidation.

2Fe2(SO4)3 + (NH3OH)2SO4 = 4FeSO4 + N2O + H2O + 3H2SO4

4FeSO4 + 3H2SO4 + 0.8KMnO4 + 0.2H2SO4 = 2Fe2(SO4)3 + 0.4K2SO4 + 0.8MnSO4 + 3.2H2O
« Last Edit: August 19, 2005, 07:19:43 AM by AWK »
AWK

hydrowire

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Re:Redox equation
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2005, 10:22:13 AM »
Quote
2Fe2(SO4)3 + (NH3OH)2SO4 = 4FeSO4 + N2O + H2O + 3H2SO4

what with the Fe2(SO4)3? the soulution is mixed with iron(III)ammonium sulphate, where is the ammonium?


Quote
There is no need to use H2SO4 in the first reaction

maybe as a catalyst?

Offline AWK

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Re:Redox equation
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2005, 08:53:50 AM »
quotes from last post of hydrowire

Quote
what with the Fe2(SO4)3? the soulution is mixed with iron(III)ammonium sulphate, where is the ammonium?
Read carefully
quote from the first post of hydrowire
Quote
In the presence of hydrogen ions, the hydroxyammonium ion, NH3OH+ will reduce iron(III) ion to iron(II) ion while the NH3OH+ ion itself will be oxidised to dinitrogen oxide.

Quote
maybe as a catalyst?
Acid is added to ensure a proper stoichiometry in the oxidation of FeSO4 by permanganate[/color]
« Last Edit: August 21, 2005, 08:56:01 AM by AWK »
AWK

Offline seong8737

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Re: Redox equation
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2008, 07:22:25 AM »
Im sorry if Im asking a dumb question.
But isnt Fe(3+) + 2NH3OH(+) --> Fe(2+) + N2O + H20 + 6H have balanced the equation already? Why do we still need to add 2 infront of Fe(3+0 and Fe(2+)?

I know I must be wrong. Can someone please correct me?^_^

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