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Topic: working with NaF and KF  (Read 13979 times)

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Offline Black_Forest

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working with NaF and KF
« on: August 14, 2006, 08:27:14 PM »
Hi!
I would like to ask if you have some experience how is to work with NaF and KF at 1000°C but in the lab not under fumecoboard.
I know that is toxic but I do not see at the moment how to protect myself since the lab is not well equipped
Thank you for your advice!
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Offline woelen

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Re: working with NaF and KF
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2006, 05:06:46 PM »
If you want to use NaF and/or KF at 1000 C, and if you don't have any protection, then PLEASE DON"T DO THIS!

Fluorides are insidiously toxic and really nasty. At ordinary temperatures, NaF and KF are not that dangerous, but on addition of even weak acids, the VERY dangerous HF is formed, but at temps of 1000 C or so, you may have some volatility of the fluoride.

Many people think of fluoride, just as the other halogenides (chloride, bromide, iodide), but this is a big mistake. The other halogenides are almost non-toxic (at least, if the cation is non-toxic) and their acids, although corrosive, are not long-term toxins and only are toxic due to their corrosiveness. The fluorides and the acid HF are of a totally different nature and the concentrated acids HCl, HBr and HI are childrens toys, compared to HF or hot metal fluorides. Some of the greater 19th century chemists (Davis, Moissan, Scheele) have suffered from very severe health problems due to fluoride poisoning over a longer time and IIRC some of these great chemist died a prematurely due to the bad effects of fluoride poisoning.
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Offline Black_Forest

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Re: working with NaF and KF
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2006, 05:33:47 PM »
woelen,

I agree with you.
When I was PhD student in G****** people were paying much attention to such things but now, in U** I cannot believe that is allowed to work in such bad conditions in a such prestigious school.
Personally I have no motivation to work and I feel very bad.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2006, 10:21:11 PM by Oxygenne »
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Offline Borek

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Re: working with NaF and KF
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2006, 05:40:36 PM »
Quote from: Oxygenne on August 20, 2006, 05:33:47 PM
When I was PhD student in Germany people were paying much attention to such things but now, in USA I cannot believe that is allowed to work in such bad conditions in a such prestigious school.

AFAIK Americans can be quite paranoid about safety so it sounds incredible. Can you share some details?
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Offline Black_Forest

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Re: working with NaF and KF
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2006, 10:13:33 PM »
you ask me
Can you share some details?
say which details do you want more precisely  ;D
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Offline Borek

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Re: working with NaF and KF
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2006, 02:55:28 AM »
Quote from: Oxygenne on August 20, 2006, 10:13:33 PM
say which details do you want more precisely  ;D

Quote from: Oxygenne on August 20, 2006, 05:33:47 PM
such prestigious school.

Which school and who asks you to work in such conditions - but I see you have already started to hide facts editing earlier posts.
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Offline Black_Forest

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Re: working with NaF and KF
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2006, 12:16:29 PM »
you are right.

I cannot say, but it is true what  is happen
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Offline Borek

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Re: working with NaF and KF
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2006, 12:28:44 PM »
Quote from: Oxygenne on August 21, 2006, 12:16:29 PM
you are right.

I cannot say, but it is true what  is happen

Sorry, but I don't buy it. I am more then sure that in every school there are people responsible for lab safety and that you can contact them if you are asked to do things you feel dangerous.
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Offline Black_Forest

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Re: working with NaF and KF
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2006, 02:21:30 PM »
 :-[
one hole from the upper part was open and I had "opportunity" to breath some white dust at 1000^C!
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Offline Borek

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Re: working with NaF and KF
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2006, 02:27:17 PM »
Quote from: Oxygenne on August 25, 2006, 02:21:30 PM
:-[
one hole from the upper part was open and I had "opportunity" to breath some white dust at 1000^C!

And you should immediately report it to authorities.
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Offline Black_Forest

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Re: working with NaF and KF
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2006, 02:38:54 PM »
this how you think!
but I am affraid to not loose my work !

it is a problem about the cultural  code ! the atitude! the fear!
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Offline Borek

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Re: working with NaF and KF
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2006, 03:18:26 PM »
Quote from: Oxygenne on August 25, 2006, 02:38:54 PM
this how you think!
but I am affraid to not loose my work !

You prefer to loose health/life?
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Offline english

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Re: working with NaF and KF
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2006, 02:36:09 PM »
Quote from: Oxygenne on August 25, 2006, 02:21:30 PM
:-[
one hole from the upper part was open and I had "opportunity" to breath some white dust at 1000^C!

Um that sounds pretty bad you might want to have that checked out.

I don't know much of fluorides nor have done any work with them but I do know that HF is capable of literally eating through your skin.  I don't know of this white dust you speak of but involving fluroride at temps of 1000°C, I know it's probably bad.
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