November 26, 2024, 12:34:32 AM
Forum Rules: Read This Before Posting


Topic: Reverse Diffusion Demonstration  (Read 10708 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline S_Ch_S

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
Re: Reverse Diffusion Demonstration
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2024, 10:03:19 AM »
Thank you so much for your amazing answers! Probably the best responses I have gotten in any forum ever!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2024, 12:17:12 PM by S_Ch_S »

Offline S_Ch_S

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
Re: Reverse Diffusion Demonstration
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2024, 10:26:56 AM »
Thank you so much for your amazing answers! Probably the best responses I have gotten in any forum ever!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2024, 12:17:00 PM by S_Ch_S »

Offline Babcock_Hall

  • Chemist
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5707
  • Mole Snacks: +330/-24
Re: Reverse Diffusion Demonstration
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2024, 11:14:19 AM »

Incidentally, biology figured this out a long time ago. Every cell in your body uses chemical energy from cellular respiration to propel ions across a membrane against a concentration gradient. These ions then flow back across the membrane through ion channels to create ATP, which can then be used to drive reactions elsewhere in the cell. Signal transduction in neurons is also facilitated by the creation of ion gradients across cell membranes using similar "reverse diffusion" processes driven by the consumption of cellular energy provided by ATP.
Just to piggyback on this concept.  Bacteria such as E. coli move lactose (milk sugar) against its concentration gradient, which requires energy.  Evidently they obtain more energy by catabolizing this disaccharide than is takes to drive the transport.  This might be tangential to your question.

Offline Corribus

  • Chemist
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3551
  • Mole Snacks: +545/-23
  • Gender: Male
  • A lover of spectroscopy and chocolate.
Re: Reverse Diffusion Demonstration
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2024, 11:37:57 AM »
I don't think it's tangential at all. Given that life itself is made possible only by utilizing energy to (locally) defy the thermodynamic tendency to maximize entropy, it should not be surprising that there are many microscopic and macroscopic examples of local increases in concentration due to life processes. We can even think of examples on the large scale: imagine people milling about outside in a large field, rain clouds come, people will concentrate themselves inside due to the energetic payoff of staying dry. Grazing animals concentrate themselves into herds when predators are present due to the payoff of increased change of survival. We may even look to sociological principles: societies self-segregating themselves into neighborhoods based on wealth, race, religion, etc. It may seem silly to think of these things as examples of thermodynamic principles in action, but looked at analytically, they typify how living systems can run counter to the entropic tendency toward maximum mixing and maximum decrease of concentration for some energetic benefit. The processes appear to happen naturally without little conscious thought on the part of the participating organisms. Less abstract examples also occur in our technology: every house that runs an air conditioner or refrigerator is using energy to run a "reverse diffusion machine". In this case the diffusing "substance" is heat rather than matter, but the principles are the same all the way down to the equations used to describe it.

(As a matter of fact, versions of the diffusion equation and related thermodynamic/entropy principles have been used to successfully model everything from mass transfer, heat transfer, currency flow, information exchange, sociological change, and so on. Thermodynamics truly is everywhere. Seriously, next time you're on a train or bus or theater, watch how strangers naturally spread out to fill the available space, whereas family members sit together. Have you ever considered the thermodynamics of why they do that? In my view, it's remarkable how large ensembles of particles behave in ways that might be predicted by the laws of statistical mechanics, whether those particles are atoms or people. It makes me question the authenticity of choice. Is free will real or just an illusion deriving from the fact that when you are part of the system, it's hard to see the system at large. Your choice may be the product of conscious thought, but does it matter if the behavior of the system of which you are part is predetermined? Even if you consciously chose the seat you chose, is the choice meaningful if the aggregate of all choices by all people is easily predicted by a statistical bell curve modeled by a basic law of thermodynamics? Put another way, if you had not chosen the seat you chose, someone else would have, and the system would be unchanged. Hmmm. Well, I guess that's a philosophical question for you all ;).)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2024, 12:16:28 PM by Corribus »
What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?  - Richard P. Feynman

Offline S_Ch_S

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
Re: Reverse Diffusion Demonstration
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2024, 12:10:54 PM »
Thank you both for the very interesting exchange of ideas!

Offline S_Ch_S

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
Re: Reverse Diffusion Demonstration
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2024, 12:25:58 PM »
@Corribus Blown away by your last post. Any good read/link/youtube on these ideas?

Offline Corribus

  • Chemist
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3551
  • Mole Snacks: +545/-23
  • Gender: Male
  • A lover of spectroscopy and chocolate.
Re: Reverse Diffusion Demonstration
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2024, 01:16:06 PM »
Well, entropy as a concept is foundational to some disciplines like information theory. In others like sociology and economics, it's a little more controversial, but I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised that thermodynamic principles guide human constructs. A quick search indicates there are youtube videos available for these, particularly Information Theory (you might try looking into Shannon Entropy), but I haven't vetted them.

As for the philosophical aspects, well those are my own thoughts, although I can't say for sure whether others have put them forward first. So no youtube video for that (yet). But I see that the idea isn't too far fetched, as others have ruminated on the link between thermodynamics guiding human decision-making, e.g., here. (I haven't read that article, just found it as the first link when searching for "thermodynamics and human behavior".) Googling "free will and thermodynamics" also turns up a number of hits, mostly to other forums where random internet peoples have given voice to the topic.
What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?  - Richard P. Feynman

Offline S_Ch_S

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
Re: Reverse Diffusion Demonstration
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2024, 01:25:21 PM »
Thank you so much for sharing your amazing ideas!!

Offline S_Ch_S

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
Re: Reverse Diffusion Demonstration
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2024, 03:15:45 AM »
Another interesting link:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0378437120309973

Quote from the intro:
"It is shown that there is a deep analogy between the parameters of thermodynamic and economic systems (markets)"

Your view of the world that you described above shifts the perspective of looking at things completely. And it seems to be touching a much deeper level...than what is usually observed..  It is very interesting to think for example volatility in markets as a non-equilibrium state...it literally is. Thanks again!

Offline S_Ch_S

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
Re: Reverse Diffusion Demonstration
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2024, 06:25:27 PM »
May I ask something: I did the sodium chloride infused water electrolysis in a self-built thin and long water tank for about 3 hours and after I turned the voltage (12V) off, my glass water tank broke. I didn't see how this happened but I found it broken 5 minutes after I turned the voltage off. Any explanation on this? Was the hydrogen product trapped in the water tank but which other factor contributed to this? Thanks!

Offline Corribus

  • Chemist
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3551
  • Mole Snacks: +545/-23
  • Gender: Male
  • A lover of spectroscopy and chocolate.
Re: Reverse Diffusion Demonstration
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2024, 08:51:57 PM »
If the tank was hermetically sealed and it is not pressure rated, then, sure, gas generation at the electrode could certainly cause failure.
What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?  - Richard P. Feynman

Offline S_Ch_S

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
Re: Reverse Diffusion Demonstration
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2024, 02:27:33 AM »
Thank you for the response, the tank was absolutely not hermetically closed, and the 12V electrolysis of sodium chloride infused water was happening for 3hrs. After I turned it off it broke. Any logical explanation? It was a thin and long tank but its top side was completely open.

Offline Borek

  • Mr. pH
  • Administrator
  • Deity Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27864
  • Mole Snacks: +1813/-412
  • Gender: Male
  • I am known to be occasionally wrong.
    • Chembuddy
Re: Reverse Diffusion Demonstration
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2024, 03:00:08 AM »
Three factors that could contribute to the failure: hydrogen, chlorine, and pH going up. Hydrogen seems to be the least problematic, but both chlorine and high pH can easily speed up corrosion/decomposition of many substances/glues.

Doesn't mean it wasn't just a completely random thing.
ChemBuddy chemical calculators - stoichiometry, pH, concentration, buffer preparation, titrations.info

Offline S_Ch_S

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
Re: Reverse Diffusion Demonstration
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2024, 03:19:01 AM »
Thank you again for the response, it seems very weird that this happened especially after turning the voltage off.

Offline Corribus

  • Chemist
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3551
  • Mole Snacks: +545/-23
  • Gender: Male
  • A lover of spectroscopy and chocolate.
Re: Reverse Diffusion Demonstration
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2024, 09:20:51 AM »
The failure after the battery being turned off could just be a matter of kinetics. Under Borek's theory of corrosion, corrosive substances generated during the cell operation could take some time to cause enough damage to reach the point of failure.
What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?  - Richard P. Feynman

Sponsored Links