November 10, 2024, 04:39:30 PM
Forum Rules: Read This Before Posting


Topic: Rockets  (Read 14501 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline yosh

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15
  • Mole Snacks: +2/-2
Rockets
« on: December 26, 2007, 01:43:29 PM »
How does a rocket move in space, where there is no air to push against?

Offline Rabn

  • Chemist
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 284
  • Mole Snacks: +28/-13
Re: Rockets
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2007, 02:04:51 PM »
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/history/newton3laws.html

Pay attenition to the third law. Think about how a rocket engine works...

Offline yosh

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15
  • Mole Snacks: +2/-2
Re: Rockets
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2008, 03:39:30 PM »
Newton's third law cannot apply, because there has to be something being pushed against and there is no air in space.

Offline Borek

  • Mr. pH
  • Administrator
  • Deity Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27839
  • Mole Snacks: +1811/-412
  • Gender: Male
  • I am known to be occasionally wrong.
    • Chembuddy
Re: Rockets
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2008, 03:46:30 PM »
Newton's third law cannot apply, because there has to be something being pushed against and there is no air in space.

Yes it applies.

Picture yourself in a boat on a lake. You throw a tangerine out of the boat. What happens to the boat? Is it still still?
ChemBuddy chemical calculators - stoichiometry, pH, concentration, buffer preparation, titrations.info

Offline yosh

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15
  • Mole Snacks: +2/-2
Re: Rockets
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2008, 03:53:24 PM »
What about Newton's first law?

Offline Alpha-Omega

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 693
  • Mole Snacks: +360/-231
  • Gender: Female
  • Physical Inorganic Chemist
Re: Rockets
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2008, 04:52:56 PM »
I work on rockets with my best friend every year.  She is a Physics Professor at Madison-I do the rocket fuel-she does the propulsion…..

What propels a rocket is Newton's third law of motion, for every force acting on one body there is an equal and opposite force acting on another. When the rocket burns its fuel the expanding gases thus created create a force that shoots these gases out the back end of the engine.

This force create a second force that pushes the rocket in the opposite direction (forward). So, the rocket is pushing against the gases that it shoots out the back. At the same time, these gases are pushing on the rocket. This cause both to move in opposite directions.

1) You can move through a vacuum. (Well, it will then no more be a vacuum, because you are inside it...)
For instance, the photons of light move through the vacuum of a light bulb, or through intergalactic space. Objects moving through vacuum follow inertia, gravitational fields, and other kind of fields.
The greatest problem is, not to follow this given way. To lose this problem is the purpose of spacecraft propulsion.


2) Spacecraft propulsion:
"When in space, the purpose of a propulsion system is to change the velocity v of a spacecraft. Since this is more difficult for more massive spacecraft, designers generally discuss momentum, mv. The amount of change in momentum is called impulse. So the goal of a propulsion method in space is to create an impulse."

"The law of conservation of momentum means that in order for a propulsion method to change the momentum of a space craft it must change the momentum of something else as well. A few designs take advantage of things like magnetic fields or light pressure in order to change the spacecraft's momentum, but in free space the rocket must bring along some mass to accelerate away in order to push itself forward. Such mass is called reaction mass.

In order for a rocket to work, it needs two things: reaction mass and energy. The impulse provided by launching a particle of reaction mass having mass m at velocity v is mv. But this particle has kinetic energy mv²/2, which must come from somewhere. In a conventional solid, liquid, or hybrid rocket, the fuel is burned, providing the energy, and the reaction products are allowed to flow out the back, providing the reaction mass. In an ion thruster, electricity is used to accelerate ions out the back. Here some other source must provide the electrical energy (perhaps a solar panel or a nuclear reactor), while the ions provide the reaction mass"

"Rather than relying on high temperature and fluid dynamics to accelerate the reaction mass to high speeds, there are a variety of methods that use electrostatic or electromagnetic forces to accelerate the reaction mass directly. Usually the reaction mass is a stream of ions. Such an engine requires electric power to run, and high exhaust velocities require large amounts of energy."

"The law of conservation of momentum states that any engine which uses no reaction mass cannot move the center of mass of a spaceship (changing orientation, on the other hand, is possible). But space is not empty, especially space inside the Solar System; there are gravitation fields, magnetic fields, solar wind and solar radiation. Various propulsion methods try to take advantage of these. However, since these phenomena are diffuse in nature, corresponding propulsion structures need to be proportionately large."
Source and further information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacecraft_propulsion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacecraft

3) Further information:
- about vacuum:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum
- outer space:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_space
- space travel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intergalactic_travel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_travel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interplanetary_travel

Offline Padfoot

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 221
  • Mole Snacks: +23/-2
Re: Rockets
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2008, 06:03:50 PM »
What about Newton's first law?
I agree.  I suppose in deep space Newton's first law could also be an answer, but the 3rd law (as others have said) is definitely the answer they are looking for  :)

Offline Alpha-Omega

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 693
  • Mole Snacks: +360/-231
  • Gender: Female
  • Physical Inorganic Chemist
Re: Rockets
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2008, 06:21:23 PM »
Keep searching....that is what it is all about... ;D

Offline enahs

  • 16-92-15-68 32-7-53-92-16
  • Retired Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2179
  • Mole Snacks: +206/-44
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rockets
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2008, 06:45:32 PM »
Newtons 1st law when applied to space propulsion is what is called ΔV (Delta-V), change in velocity. It is not used in describing the "forward" motion, rather turning or changing direction. It is quite complicated, you can not just "turn left" in space.




Offline Padfoot

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 221
  • Mole Snacks: +23/-2
Re: Rockets
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2008, 07:09:59 PM »
Newtons 1st law when applied to space propulsion is what is called ΔV (Delta-V), change in velocity.
Where does the change in velocity come from though?  Newton's first law does not deal with any forces.

It is not used in describing the "forward" motion
I'm not sure if I follow, what about its inertia - are you referring to acceleration?

Offline Arkcon

  • Retired Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7367
  • Mole Snacks: +533/-147
Re: Rockets
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2008, 08:05:15 PM »
Newton's third law cannot apply, because there has to be something being pushed against and there is no air in space.

This is so funny, that exactly what letters to the editor in Scientific American said more than a century ago.  See wikipedia, people got pretty nasty back then over this issue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket#Theories_of_interplanetary_rocketry
Hey, I'm not judging.  I just like to shoot straight.  I'm a man of science.

Offline enahs

  • 16-92-15-68 32-7-53-92-16
  • Retired Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2179
  • Mole Snacks: +206/-44
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rockets
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2008, 09:28:50 PM »
Quote
Where does the change in velocity come from though?  Newton's first law does not deal with any forces.

The application of Newtons first law comes from how you change direction. You can not be traveling in direction X and fire a thruster to travel in direction Y, you are now traveling in a XY direction, not just Y. If you are traveling in the "forward" direction, you keep traveling in the forward direction unless you exert a force to stop the direction, regardless if you fire a rocket perpendicular to your initial direction of travel. And yes that force you exert is 3rd law. I am not arguing that, people were bringing up the 1st law and I was trying to explain how it is important to space travel.

Quote
I'm not sure if I follow, what about its inertia - are you referring to acceleration?
All I am saying is that in "rocket" terms, Delta-V refers to changing direction of motion and has nothing to do with changing velocity (either positive and negative) in the same direction (i.e. slowing down or speeding up).




Just throwing out more info about rockets in general.

Offline Padfoot

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 221
  • Mole Snacks: +23/-2
Re: Rockets
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2008, 09:54:41 PM »
Where does the change in velocity come from though?  Newton's first law does not deal with any forces.

The application of Newtons first law comes from how you change direction. You can not be traveling in direction X and fire a thruster to travel in direction Y, you are now traveling in a XY direction, not just Y. If you are traveling in the "forward" direction, you keep traveling in the forward direction unless you exert a force to stop the direction, regardless if you fire a rocket perpendicular to your initial direction of travel. And yes that force you exert is 3rd law. I am not arguing that, people were bringing up the 1st law and I was trying to explain how it is important to space travel.


oh ok, I get you now.  Thanks for the explanation  :)




I'm not sure if I follow, what about its inertia - are you referring to acceleration?

All I am saying is that in "rocket" terms, Delta-V refers to changing direction of motion and has nothing to do with changing velocity (either positive and negative) in the same direction (i.e. slowing down or speeding up).


ok, so you were talking about acceleration  ;)


Offline yosh

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15
  • Mole Snacks: +2/-2
Re: Rockets
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2008, 10:16:06 PM »
So in the end, which law applies to rockets in space: Newton's first law or Newton's third law?

Offline enahs

  • 16-92-15-68 32-7-53-92-16
  • Retired Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2179
  • Mole Snacks: +206/-44
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rockets
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2008, 10:44:37 PM »
Quote
So in the end, which law applies to rockets in space: Newton's first law or Newton's third law?

To "rockets in space", all three laws apply.

To your first question of "How does a rocket move in space, where there is no air to push against?" the first law. It is pushing against it's own exhaust.


Sponsored Links