[jwlaurie]

is this correct ?

         HO-C-O-K
               |
               O
               |
         HO-C-O-K

 

[Arkcon]

No, for starters, that model has the wrong amounts of atoms, compared to the formula.  Potassium bicarbonate doesn't contain 2 carbonates, or 2 potassium ions, the bi is an ancient, obsolete chemical term meaning "one more hydrogen than."  The correct chemical name is potassium hydrogen carbonate.

[jwlaurie]

I am a firefighter taking fire chemistry and I need to make the model for Potassium bicarbonate can you help me and show me how it would look ?

[Borek]

bi is an ancient, obsolete chemical term meaning "one more hydrogen than."

AFAIR bi refers to the stoichiometry of neutralization when using diprotic acids - it means "compound made when you use twice as much acid as necessary".

[Borek]

I am a firefighter taking fire chemistry and I need to make the model for Potassium bicarbonate can you help me and show me how it would look ?

First of all - please check the correct formula, you will find it (for example) in wikipedia.

[Arkcon]

OK, here's the {wikipedia} page for sodium bicarbonate, just replace the Na with a K

[jwlaurie]

it would look like this ?

       K+ -O   OH
              \  /
               C         
               ||
               O

[Arkcon]

bi is an ancient, obsolete chemical term meaning "one more hydrogen than."

AFAIR bi refers to the stoichiometry of neutralization when using diprotic acids - it means "compound made when you use twice as much acid as necessary".

Really, so, how is that done, you've got NaOH, and instead of neutralizing it with HCO3 to get NaCO3, you use H2CO3 (the one that actually exists, heh) to get NaHCO3?  Naw, I'm not getting it.  Sodium Bicarbonate, sodium bisulfite, sodium phosphate dibasic -- they only barely taught these to me when I was in high school, they were so sure everyone was going to only use the IUPAC name, forever.

[Arkcon]

it would look like this ?

       K+ -O   OH
              \  /
               C         
               ||
               O

Yeah, that'll work.  If you're bored, poke around the web a bit to find bond angles, it's kinda interesting.

[jwlaurie]

Thank you for the help

[Borek]

you've got NaOH, and instead of neutralizing it with HCO3 to get NaCO3, you use H2CO3 (the one that actually exists, heh) to get NaHCO3?

Are we talking chemistry here? HCO3? NaCO3? Time to wake up

Stoichiometry - 1 mole of diprotic acid per 2 moles of monoprotic base:

2NaOH + H₂CO₃ -> Na₂CO₃ + 2H₂O

Product: carbonate.

Now, double amount of acid - ie 2 moles of diprotic acid per 2 moles of base, or simply 1:1:

NaOH + H₂CO₃ -> NaHCO₃ + H₂O

Product: bicarbonate.

Its not that hard

[jwlaurie]

you've got NaOH, and instead of neutralizing it with HCO3 to get NaCO3, you use H2CO3 (the one that actually exists, heh) to get NaHCO3?

Are we talking chemistry here? HCO3? NaCO3? Time to wake up

Stoichiometry - 1 mole of diprotic acid per 2 moles of monoprotic base:

2NaOH + H₂CO₃ -> Na₂CO₃ + 2H₂O

Product: carbonate.

Now, double amount of acid - ie 2 moles of diprotic acid per 2 moles of base, or simply 1:1:

NaOH + H₂CO₃ -> NaHCO₃ + H₂O

Product: bicarbonate.

Its not that hard

so is the above modle wrong ?

[Arkcon]

Are we talking chemistry here? HCO3? NaCO3? Time to wake up

Stoichiometry - 1 mole of diprotic acid per 2 moles of monoprotic base:

2NaOH + H₂CO₃ -> Na₂CO₃ + 2H₂O

Product: carbonate.

Now, double amount of acid - ie 2 moles of diprotic acid per 2 moles of base, or simply 1:1:

NaOH + H₂CO₃ -> NaHCO₃ + H₂O

Product: bicarbonate.

Its not that hard

Ok, so you mix NaOH and H₂CO₃, and you get, which one, carbonate or bicarbonate?  Or some of one and the other, maybe, with great excess of H₂CO₃, more bicarbonate than carbonate, is that it?

so is the above modle wrong ?

No it's fine, I'm just trying to learn from Borek about the bi- prefix, and what it means.

[Borek]

Ok, so you mix NaOH and H₂CO₃, and you get, which one, carbonate or bicarbonate?  Or some of one and the other, maybe, with great excess of H₂CO₃, more bicarbonate than carbonate, is that it?

You will probably get mixture, unless you will mix exact ratio of acid and base.

I'm just trying to learn from Borek about the bi- prefix, and what it means.

Note: meaning of the prefix is of no practical importance, I believe it is just echo of some early chemistry. Imagine one of those early chemists not knowing anything that we take for granted today before we even touch the beaker. He finds out that mixing 4 mass units (be it grams, ounces or anything else) of sodium hydroxide with 10 mass units of sulfuric acid he gets solution that - once dried out - gives nice crystals and nothing is left - neither base nor acid. That's great! But now he does the same using 4 mass units of base and 20 mass units of the same acid - and he gets crystallic substance as well... And once again nothing is left! Oops, how do I tell which one is which one? Oh well, I have used twice the amount of sulfuric acid, it is doubled, let's call it BIsulfate...

Note2: NaOH and H₂SO₄ just because I happen to remember their molar masses precisely enough And it is not exactly 4:10, but close enough. And I am assuming pure sulfruic acid, not some solution. Don't be to picky and you should get the idea behind