[Polleke]

How long does it take to get a (master)degree in chemistry at your country?

In belgium it takes 5 years to get your master degree in chemistry (or science in general).

In usa it is I believe , only 4 years?

and people from other countries, how long does it take you to get a master degree?
(assuming you do not need to do a year twice)

[Yggdrasil]

For someone who already has a bachelors degree, masters degree programs usually take 1-2 years. PhD programs, on the other hand, usually take 4+ years.  However, in the US, it is not required to have a masters before you start your PhD.

[Polleke]

For someone who already has a bachelors degree, masters degree programs usually take 1-2 years. PhD programs, on the other hand, usually take 4+ years.  However, in the US, it is not required to have a masters before you start your PhD.

uh?


I dont get it, a master degree is 1 or 2 years ? Why 1 or 2 ? Does this depends on what courses you pick or ?

and you can do a phd without a master degree..?

Really?

Wow, thats weird.

I dont get that.
Here you need a master degree and distinction during your studies.

[sjb]

I think the key is that there are several degrees that have the title Masters.

Here in the UK, for instance, you don't even need a BSc to do the masters, the two subjects are often tought together, the only difference being more work for the Masters. I for instance have an MChem as my first degree, but no BSc "behind" it. There are other "top-up" degrees that are also Masters degrees, but are more specialist in outlook which may only take a year or two on top of a first degree.

S

[Polleke]

I think the key is that there are several degrees that have the title Masters.

Here in the UK, for instance, you don't even need a BSc to do the masters, the two subjects are often tought together, the only difference being more work for the Masters. I for instance have an MChem as my first degree, but no BSc "behind" it. There are other "top-up" degrees that are also Masters degrees, but are more specialist in outlook which may only take a year or two on top of a first degree.

S

I still find it strange.

In belgium its impossible to obtain a master degree without a bachlors degree and you need to have a bachlors degree in the same "sector" to even start the masteryear without doing extra courses.


And how long does a master degree take then in the UK? I cant imagine its only 1 year then to obtain a master degree?

[Borek]

No idea about UK, but just because you don't have to finish BSc to make MSc doesn't maen you don't have to finish all necessary courses. In Poland you can make MSc in about 5 years - in the meantime, after 3 years, you can have BSc, but it is not compulsory. So, your options are - finish after 3 years and get BSc, then continue for two years and get your MSc, or go for 5 years and get your MSc. In the second case, if after 4^th year you can't continue to study for whatever reason, you end with nothing. I believe system described by sjb works along the same lines.

[Alpha-Omega]

I guess things in Poland are not so different than in the USA.  I work with wonderful Chemist from Poland and she has explained the process to me.  We have 5 year progams here where you basically spend 1 extra year picking up the MS.

Generally, speaking the BS is a 4 year program.  But the way it works out the BS is finished in 3 and the rest of those credits-and you do have to finsih them all-apply to the MS.  Sounds same to me.

I did my MS part time, quarter system, with thesis, 3 years.  My cousin did her MS, part time, with project no thesis, semester system, 3 years and her company paid for the entire thing 100%.  My friend AVM was in the PhD program , opted out for the MS, fulltime, semester program, project, took her 4 years (but she switched advisors and programs).

In the USA there are so many programs they have in place that eventually you can finish anything you start.  My friend DB just opted back into the PhD program at IIT in Environmental Engineering.  She told me that one guy there just finished.  It took him 17 years (obviously he had to repeat some coursework) but he finished.  She will only have to take 1 class (statistics)-then she goes right into her research since she has the MS.

I do know here you can pick up am MS in any subject that you have a major or minor in  So for me I could go back and get anothe MS in Physics and/or Math and/or Spanish.  That kind of is in line with your statement about not having to have a BS to do an MS.  But to get into the MS program you have to have finished a BS in some area.  Now that there are so many cross-over areas I would have alot of choices.

[Polleke]

Well, sounds a bit strange to me.

Anyway, I think the main part is the same then.

its just a bit strange that you dont get a bsc even if you do 4 years and cant finish to get your master.

I find it strange.

In belgium its easier: you will always have your bachelorsdegree after the 3 years.

On the other hand I think the reason that in the us you dont need your bachelors is because you guys can choose more freely about what progams you take.
In belgium you can only choose a little bit , the main program is always the same.



Borek, one question, I dont understand the following:

after 3 years, you can have BSc, but it is not compulsory

I
Whats the diffrence then? When will you obtain your bsc and when not? is there some sort of task you need to make to get that bsc degree? Because I cant imagine that there are people "stupid" enough to not pick the bsc when you say that in the end its always 5 years for the master. (even if you decide to pick the bsc or not)



 
and Alpha-Omega  you dont need to make a thesis to get a mastersdegree? Wow , strange lol.

another strange thing: the guy that took 17 years to get his phd?
And he had to repeat some stuff? In belgium its almost impossible to start your phd if you arent one of the top students and then you have to complete all the courses without any set backs or you are out.
And you need to make a certain progress (researchpapers, writing for international magazines... etc) to stay in the program or you are also out.

and opted back into a phd program is impossible in belgium: you are in and stay or you are in and get kicked out and stay out... no second change or whatsover or no delay or.. anything like that.

It all sounds a little bit "easy" if I hear about the usa system.
Maybe the fact that the usa has more potential (money, research,..) does influence the changes in getting a phd place.
Anyway, usa system is more "open", more adjusted to the preferences of the students if I compare it.

[Borek]

Borek, one question, I dont understand the following:

after 3 years, you can have BSc, but it is not compulsory

I
Whats the diffrence then? When will you obtain your bsc and when not? is there some sort of task you need to make to get that bsc degree? Because I cant imagine that there are people "stupid" enough to not pick the bsc when you say that in the end its always 5 years for the master. (even if you decide to pick the bsc or not)

Some sort of task, more or less time consuming. For example - at the moment Junior is working on the ray tracing program that'll be used to model some aspects of the reflections of light from the rough surface (waves on the water - they can be treated as different kind of noise and type of noise should define behavior of the system; don't ask me about details as I don't know them). This will give him BSc. For the same reason his girlfriend works on some literature digest, planned at around 100 pages IIRC.

It is your choice whether you will invest your time in BSc or social life

[Polleke]

oh ok I see.

In the old days belgium did have another system: no bachelors degree and no task or thesis to make..(so kinda like you say, only you couldnt choose if you made it or not)

Now with the bama structure they have installed the bachelors thesis, so now you need to make such task , but it will also give you a bachelorsdegree.

[Borek]

In the old days belgium did have another system: no bachelors degree and no task or thesis to make..(so kinda like you say, only you couldnt choose if you made it or not)

That's how it worked here as well - no BSc, you were finishing University with MSc. It changed somewhere in 90ties. I was told by my friends at Warsaw University that earlier nobody was interested in BSc. However, it doesn't easily translate into your situation, as on this side of iron curtain priorities were different, both on national and private level.

[Alpha-Omega]

Wait, not sure you understood my meaning:

BS, MS, PhD:  is one progression

BS, PhD:  is another progression

Here ther are many programs; and, you are correct in your assertion that programs are designed around the need of students  That is prevalent.

Traditional BS:  4 years in a semester or quarter system

Special 5-6 year programs exist where you get the BS and MS simultaneously-ok better to say in tandem.

BS program options:  Major, minor, double major, triple major, double major with minor:  any combination thereof  To complete the BS you must have at least 1 major.  120 semester hours which includes all required general studies.

EX:  I had double major and double minor:  Major Chemistry, Major Physics, Minor Math, minor Spanish (1 more math class and would have had triple major)

MS: comes after BS.  You can obtain an MS in any are you have a minor in.  You can even take additional course work to qualify into an area you do not qualify for.  After it is completed you are admitted to the MS program.

There is MS with Thesis (considered to be very strong)
There is MS with Project (strong-not the same-work often copyrighted)
There is MS - coursework MS-no thesis, no project (coursework is identical to coursework for PhD)

Many people skip the MS and go directly from the BS to the PhD.

Reasons:  same coursework and why do 2 theses or an additional project....s

There is also the option of picking up the MS in a PhD program along the way to the PhD.  The MS is often considered to provide one with a "safety net."

Things happen in life....sometimes one must leave a program for medical , personal, financial, other reasons.  If one gets the MS then one is in good shape.  It is a matter of planning and foresight.

There is also the situation where one is in the PhD program and does not survive the defense and is awarded an MS as a "consolation prize."

I did my MS at DePaul.  DePaul is well know for catering to the needs of the working student.  I worked as a Forensic Chemist for US Customs the entire time I was in the program.  That was a good thing.  I got work experience most people do not get while jumping from BS to MS.  I paid for the degree out of pocket (tuition 30K/yr).  Generally speaking there is no assitance outside of loans for the MS.

Then I applied for the PhD program.  I went. I had all the exams, all the coursework was in my research and had to leave the program for health reasons (life-saving surgery).

I can go back any time and finish...called opting back in....now after 10 years they generally make you repeat coursework..or test out of it...

As you can see there are many options.  My friend DB has BS in Chemistry and MS in Environmental Engineering and has the  PE.  She is opting into the PhD program at IIT.  She is NOT required to repeat any coursework.  She will have to take 1 statistics course (new addition) and goes straight to research.  She will be doing this research at her place of employment and some at the university.

None of this is EASY....I think when you say EASY...you mean the guidelines are not RIGID as compared to what you are accustomed to.  Now keep i mind that DB has 3 children 2 in college (paid out of pocket with no loans) and one handicapped...she has a home and bills...makes huge/obscene salary....she will not give any of that up....so she is not in a hurry to get the PhD.

Additionally, the longer she stays in the program, the more work her adviser gets out of her.  Good graduate students are difficult to replace.  "Ne grad students have to be trained."  That is down-time for advisers.

My cousin, ok she is all about the money.  She got her MS, paid for 100% reimbursement from her company, she whined and whined and whined all the way thru the program.  Drove me nuts.  She kept going on and on about being under paid....wanted to be at 70k with a BS...and no experience while in her BS program.  You do the math..

So she opted in for the MS ONLY FOR THE MONEY...that would get her that salary...and she was making the company pay for it.  Now she had to agree to stay with them for a certain amt of time...and there was also a salary stipulation since they paid for her degree.  Well, she finally got it...

I was so glad when that day rolled around...then BOOM she leaves the company so she went to work for Pfizer.  By breaking that agreement she was obligated to repay her old company the difference in tuition-the money they were losing because she was leaving.  They made an investment in her...and she left.

In her opinion it was better to go to Pfizer and pay back that difference in tuition.  Now she could do her PhD if she was motivated to do so...she will not and is not!!!!  The salary difference is null.

AVM was in the PhD program and opted out for the MS.  Medical reasons led to that decision.  It took her 4 years, MS with project because she had to change advisers.  That was a horror story.  She had a polynoidal cyst removed from her spine  and because she was not back in the lab in a week working under an explosives hood her adviser began to load her file with negatives...she made the best decision at the time for her future.

Now AVM is at my company and making huge money.  She is not going to opt into the PhD program anytime soon because it will not benefit her financially.  She makes more money now than some of the managers. 

My friend RLW is going back to get her PhD...and she has the best situation because she teaches Physics at the University and can finish her PhD gratis.  Again, she opted out for the MS and now wants to go back.

You can go back if you have a good record.  Do not discount work experience.  That experience can carry one a long way.  Often advisers look at that as a positive.  You are independent, have good skills, have been involved in R&D,  and do not need to lean on them.

The people I know do not go into a PhD program to make money.  DB's reasons, my reasons, AVM's reasons...are all because of the mental stimulation and the challenge.

Whatever anyone's decision...has to be based on motivation and situation.

So YES there are many options...I do not see that the PhD in the USA is EASY....I do see that the fact there are options make it an obtainable goal.

So I hope this dissertation gives a better perspective.

[Polleke]

ok

thanks for the explanation.

When I said it is easier in the usa , I mean its easier because:

1. you have more possibilities to start a phd (in belgium its very hard to be selected to start.)
So in the states its easier to get started (doesnt mean the work itself is easier)

2. Because your school system is less fixed then ours its easier to be motivated and get better grades.
I'll try to explain it.

In usa you have the options to fully select the courses you want, in belgium : you only select a part. You will always need to follow some courses that are not relevant to your education: meaning that you are sometimes not motivated or that you cant pass.
EX. I know someone who is very very good in geography... he could ace any test about geography, but he sucks in maths, chemistry and physics..; So he will NEVER get a master degree in geography because he just cant make it true the chemistry, physics and maths he need to follow.

Why does he need to follow it: in belgium if you start a science education at university you always have the same program (about 75%) and only 25% of the courses are specific to your selection.
This for the fist year, second year its more like 50%-50%.
So in belgium its harder to pass the first year when you are not flexibel and not interested in every science...

In usa , when you wanne study maths, you just pick maths adn thats it, no chemistry, no physics, no . (well maybe a bit, the basics, but not that intense as in belgium.)

So this does make it easier to get a degree...
(eventhough the courses itsels arent easier)



PS. I have just one more question:
you stated :

My friend RLW is going back to get her PhD...and she has the best situation because she teaches Physics at the University and can finish her PhD gratis.  Again, she opted out for the MS and now wants to go back.

How can see be teaching physics at university while she hasnt got a PhD?

In belgium and I think all european countries you cant teach at university unless you have a PhD and you are selected to become a "professor".
You can indeed teach at university while doing a PhD, but then you don't "teach" but help or assist in practical courses.

SO the real teaching, the theoretical courses are always given by someone who is a professor and thus has a PhD

[Martingale]

..
How can see be teaching physics at university while she hasnt got a PhD?

In belgium and I think all european countries you cant teach at university unless you have a PhD and you are selected to become a "professor".
You can indeed teach at university while doing a PhD, but then you don't "teach" but help or assist in practical courses.

SO the real teaching, the theoretical courses are always given by someone who is a professor and thus has a PhD

That's pretty much the same here in the US.  If someone doesn't have a Ph.D. and they are teaching at a university then, with a high degree of probability, they are just teaching the service (introductory) courses. (Unless they have a terminal masters degree)

[Polleke]

Well in Belgium they dont even do that.
They dont even teach the introductionary courses.
They can only "teach" the practical stuff, meaning: things where you do not really need a professor for.
This means that you have a professor giving the theory and when you make excercises you will do those ex. under the supervision of a phd student.
(so they dont really teach, they are there do help and guide you)
(its part of the phd education.... they are learning how to help, teach, guide other people... Its very important if they want to become a professor too someday.


and what do you mean by : unless they have a terminal master degree? Whats that?