[hmx9123]

Fireworks don't use elemental sodium.    Elemental sodium simply reacts with water, an interesting reaction, but not a firework.

[lordofdarkness]

I used it as a expression
Made a light show and sparks
and a nice smoke ring

[Grumples]

If you're trying to make elemental sodium, I'd suggest not doing it.  Firstly, the melting point of NaCl is 800 degrees celsius.  Good luck getting your cell that hot.  Not only is that a logistical problem,  I'd be willing to bet that that is well over sodium's auto-ignition temperature, so it has to be sealed off from any air (as well as the created Cl2 gas, of course).  Finally, to actually have any fun with it (that's what you're aiming for, right? ) you'd have to produce a rather considerable amount (about 100 g is necessary to make an explosion, according to Theodore Gray).

There's a reason elemental sodium is not cheap as dirt.

If you want something that will ignite in contact with water, there are several other possibilities, which I'm sure you can find online somewhere.  they are significantly safer, have materials which are easier to aquire, and will run a significantly smaller chance of killing everyone in a three block radius.  (liquid sodium in a confined space at 800^o C? bad idea)

[jdurg]

Finally, to actually have any fun with it (that's what you're aiming for, right? ) you'd have to produce a rather considerable amount (about 100 g is necessary to make an explosion, according to Theodore Gray).

I think you have misunderstood Mr. Gray.  Sodium is incredibly not dense, and 100 grams of it would be a chunk about 2.75 square inches.  That's a VERY large amount.  To get an 'explosion' where the sodium metal and hydrogen gas ignite, you need a chunk about the size of your thumb.  Otherwise, it will just pop quite loudly and won't really produce a dramatic 'kaboom'.

[P-man]

Yeah, I know the one where you put a chunk of sodium with water, and ooolalaaaa. But i haven't heard the one with hydrogen.

Why would the larger amount of sodium NOT explode while the lesser amount of sodium explode??

Pierre

[jdurg]

Okay, that was just some piss-poor grammar on my part.  First of all, the size of a 100 gram chunk is 2.75"x2.75"x2.75" and not 2.75 square inches.  So imagine a lump about the size of a billiard ball.  As for the explosion, you need a chunk at LEAST the size of your thumb in order to get an explosion.  Anything LESS than that size really won't explode.  Anything MORE will definitely explode.  I just worded my post incredibly poorly.

[P-man]

Got it.

[Agent-X]

Can't you get sodium from heating up NaCl in a plate up to about 800 celcius or w/e while using carbon rods to seperate the material. I'm into watching explosives and crap   I can understand if you guys don't want to talk about that here. It's still fun though.  :1eye:

Basically you can take sodium away from the NaCl, you will have chlorine gas go off also.

The thing that becomes a problem is the part of keeping the sodium dry. I think that's what the down's cell is about right?

I've never did the studying to figure out the extraction of Na from NaOH. I'm thinking it would be less dangerous to do than the NaCl because you don't have chlorine gas trying to kill you.

Perhaps you could use the same carbon electrode method to take out the O and H since both of them break up when electrolyzing water.

You're going to have to keep the sodium dry either way you look at it, or else the sodium will explode on you and it will all be pointless. That's the thing about trying to extract things during a chemical reaction, time becomes a giant factor.

Picture of Downs Cell:


Of course you will have to somehow guide the flow of chlorine away and also guide the Sodium(l) (Na)

Hmmm!

listen guys, I had a thought. I am certain that our esteemed progenitors have given a great deal of "energia cogentis"
to the vexing issue of sodium production, while the organic chemists creed is to avoid ultra-high temperatures at all costs, perhaps we are unneccesarily complicating the obvious here.


The DOWNS cell is an apparatus equaled in its sophistication only by its simplicity.

Using the NaCl version seems a little foolhardy and expensive until you factor in the ruggedness and ease of manufacure. And the common availability of materials procurement.

and the skills and techniques learned in the course would be invaluable in future endeavors

Perhaps Cl gas is fairly reactive, but not unnaturaly dangerous as long as you were careful to use good, robust gas-tight fittings.

And I KNOW that your collective genius can come up with oodles of uses for the Cl that is evolved.....HMMMM?

source: Science Madness

That's just a bit of information. You could probably find more on this elsewhere.

[jdurg]

You also need to make sure that the liquid sodium isn't exposed to any oxygen, or any other oxidizing material.  At the temperature required for the electrolysis, the sodium will be in a very molten form and highly susceptable to reaction with water vapor, oxygen gas, any halogens, any nitrogen oxides, etc.  The reaction chamber absolutely MUST be free of oxidizing gases othewise a very nasty explosion will occur.

[Agent-X]

Did someone remove my picture?  
Not nice...

Anyways, a good way to raise the temperature if you're attempting to conceal the sodium away from other material that will set it off, is to heat up the down's cell or else crucible with thermite.

[soroka69]

Hello every one. I’m thinking if some one need metal sodium is it better to melt a sodium hydroxide, it melts at a lot lower temperature, les then 400C. I have Downs Cell made from clay-graphite crucible number #35 and cover is also graphite with a upside down Y as a duct with a hole all the way to the outside  with ¾ steel pipe extension, cathode is thick ring of steel, anode is graphite that resembles Y it has vertical channels in the top side of the Y. In the side wall of graphite crucible 2/3 from the bottom is a ½” diameter steel pipe that is 9” long (protrude true the wall of the furnace) with steel valve on the end. Cathode is connected to it. I fill the crucible 4/5 full; if I drew sodium metal I add more salt to the crucible. And all this is inside of 55 gallon dram – the furnace. I use a lot of refractory material to keep the heat in. Use a 20. Lb BBQ tank as a fuel cell and 0-12 PSL gas regulator. I can melt aluminum and brass in that furnace like a foundry. The inside temperature is ~ 1000C. To evacuate chlorine I use argon gas. Do not use argon+CO2 mixture! Sodium burns in CO2 presence!  For electric power I use car battery charger 150 Amps 12Volts. Sold in auto stores for $139.00 to $189.00 . And if you have an extra car battery put in parallel to the charger the higher current flow the better.  I hope this help, if some one makes this and get hurt by it please keep me from the lawsuit.  

[jdurg]

Sounds like a nice setup.  You'll have to take some photos of it and your end product.  

[soroka69]

I’m working on the blueprint for smaller version of my apparatus. Made from old propane tank as a Downs cell and a 35 Gallon dram Foundry. It will be more portable, for all you people. Small problem that you have to supply an 110Volts at 20Amps for long time, also you going to need a couple 12 Volt high current batteries in parallel. Got to have current to do the job writhe. More current you can provide, more sodium will separate from chlorine in the Downs cell. The project is complicated, requires welders skill, and some drilling. All shove you haw to calculate your transformer and get a set off high current diodes. This is simple but… What to do with Chlorine gas?  And you are going to get an Argon tank to flash chlorine gas from the electrolysis chamber. You ask me where to - your idea. In my set up –to the water solution of baking soda. All my next posting will accommodate the picture in progress.  I will explain later why a lot of current is important for this setup.  I hope this help, if some one makes this and get hurt by it please keep me from the lawsuit.            

[soroka69]

Hello jdurg. Final product has to be purified. I’m getting80% sodium 20% salt from my setup. It has to be reheated in the reparatory funnels. Sodium on the top and salt is on the bottom of the funnel. I hope this help, if some one makes this and get hurt by it please keep me from the lawsuit.  

   

[hydrowire]

Sodium is very dangerous.

Few days ago I 'took' a piece of Na from my skul chem lab about the size of two thumbs and throw it in a puddle of water under a tree. Then we watch as it reacts with water vigorously.

5~10 seconds later..BOOM! We are so frighten and walk away. We don't run because we might look suspicious. The sound is as loud as firecrackers. We are glad no one hurts.

No more Na experimenting next time..