[motownmuscle]

Specifically with radicals of the oxy acids - formation of salts.

My book says - The valence of hte radicals is determined by the number of H atoms in the acids. H2CO3 and 2 H atoms, thus the radical is CO3 2-.

-Prefixes do not change but the suffixes do. Therefore, -ous becomes -ite and -ic becomes -ate.

Can someone tell me how this relates to oxy acids, it seems to vague for me to make the connection. Heres one more example it gives.

NaClO = sodium hypochlorite
NaClO3 = sodium chlorate.

[motownmuscle]

nvm i understand it, i was looking into it too much.

[Stephen]

Specifically with radicals of the oxy acids - formation of salts.

My book says - The valence of hte radicals is determined by the number of H atoms in the acids. H2CO3 and 2 H atoms, thus the radical is CO3 2-.

-Prefixes do not change but the suffixes do. Therefore, -ous becomes -ite and -ic becomes -ate.

Can someone tell me how this relates to oxy acids, it seems to vague for me to make the connection. Heres one more example it gives.

NaClO = sodium hypochlorite
NaClO3 = sodium chlorate.

Well, I'll try to explain but have on your mind that my English sucks:D
Well, the sum of ox. numbers has to be 0 always!Well because Na has ox. number ALWAYS +1 you can see that the rest is going to be -1....
The same explanation for NaClO3....
Here is my example:
Na3PO4
Well you see, i can do this on the same way as for NaClO or I can simple say this:
Na3PO4 is formed by acid H3PO4 so because there is 3 times H+ ions (3*(1+)=+3) sum of ox. numbers has to be 0) so PO4 is -3
Or again I can simple tell myself, Na is always +1 and because there are 3 times Na so that's 3+ and again the rest is -3!
I tried to explain!

[Borek]

thus the radical is CO3 2-

This is not a radical - radicals have unpaired electrons and are highly reactive.

[mer-mer-mer-mer-mer]

Although H₂CO₃ does have 2 hydrogen atoms, it is a diprotic acid and Ka is different for the two stages, so it does not dissociate completely in water. The first is H₂CO₃  HCO₃^- + H⁺ and the second is HCO₃^-  CO₃^2- + H⁺

thus the radical is CO3 2-

This is not a radical - radicals have unpaired electrons and are highly reactive.

Polyatomic ions are referred to as radicals in older chemistry texts.

[Borek]

Polyatomic ions are referred to as radicals in older chemistry texts.

Older chemistry texts also mention phlogiston

[cliverlong]

Specifically with radicals of the oxy acids - formation of salts.

My book says - The valence of hte radicals is determined by the number of H atoms in the acids. H2CO3 and 2 H atoms, thus the radical is CO3 2-.

-Prefixes do not change but the suffixes do. Therefore, -ous becomes -ite and -ic becomes -ate.

Can someone tell me how this relates to oxy acids, it seems to vague for me to make the connection. Heres one more example it gives.

NaClO = sodium hypochlorite
NaClO3 = sodium chlorate.

To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what your question means. Are you asking about "valence" or are you asking about the naming convention of polyatomic ions?

I'm assuming it is a question about naming

From: http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/ch2/names.html#polyneg

I have extracted the following summary table and a brief explanation/justification for the names. The inorganic naming problem comes about because the "central" atoms for example nitrogen in nitrite or nitrate can achieve different oxidation states and this is an attempt to produce a systematic naming convention (I think it has been tinkered with over the years)

[copy]

Common Polyatomic Negative Ions

-1 ions       

HCO^3-    bicarbonate       HSO^4-    hydrogen sulfate (bisulfate)
CH₃CO^2-    acetate/ethanoate       ClO^4-    perchlorate
NO^3-    nitrate       ClO^3-    chlorate
NO^2-    nitrite       ClO^2-    chlorite
<< snip more>>

-2 ions       

CO₃^2-    carbonate       O₂^2-    peroxide
SO₄^2-    sulfate       CrO₄^2-    chromate
<< snip more >>

-3 ions       

PO₄^3-    phosphate       AsO₄^3-    arsenate
BO₃^3-    borate

Naming Polyatomic Ions

At first glance, the nomenclature of the polyatomic negative ions in the table above seems hopeless. There are several general rules, however, that can bring some order out of this apparent chaos.

The name of the ion usually ends in either -ite or -ate. The -ite ending indicates a low oxidation state. Thus,the NO^2- ion is the nitrite ion.

The -ate ending indicates a high oxidation state. The NO^3- ion, for example, is the nitrate ion.

The prefix hypo- is used to indicate the very lowest oxidation state. The ClO^- ion, for example, is the hypochlorite ion.

The prefix per- (as in hyper-) is used to indicate the very highest oxidation state. The ClO^4- ion is therefore the perchlorate ion.

There are only a handful of exceptions to these generalizations. The names of the hydroxide (OH^-), cyanide (CN^-), and peroxide (O₂^2-) ions, for example, have the -ide ending because they were once thought to be monatomic ions.

[end copy]

More information on "traditional" inorganic naming: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IUPAC_nomenclature_of_inorganic_chemistry

I thought that polyatomic oxy-anions had moved to names like

hypochlorite = chlorate(I)
chlorite = chlorate(III)
chlorate = chlorate(V)
perchlorate - chlorate (VII)

based on the oxidation state of the non-oxygen atoms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorate#Other_oxyanions

But I can't find a reference to this naming convention. Maybe it has been abandoned ?

Clive

[sjb]

Na₃PO₄
Well you see, i can do this on the same way as for NaClO or I can simple say this:
Na3PO4 is formed by acid H₃PO₄ so because there is 3 times H+ ions (3*(1+)=+3) sum of ox. numbers has to be 0) so PO4 is -3
Or again I can simple tell myself, Na is always +1 and because there are 3 times Na so that's 3+ and again the rest is -3!
I tried to explain!

Well, sodium is not always +1, there are examples of crown ethers or similar where you have Na⁺(crown)Na^-, but at a high school level this is probably true enough

[Stephen]

Na₃PO₄
Well you see, i can do this on the same way as for NaClO or I can simple say this:
Na3PO4 is formed by acid H₃PO₄ so because there is 3 times H+ ions (3*(1+)=+3) sum of ox. numbers has to be 0) so PO4 is -3
Or again I can simple tell myself, Na is always +1 and because there are 3 times Na so that's 3+ and again the rest is -3!
I tried to explain!

Well, sodium is not always +1, there are examples of crown ethers or similar where you have Na⁺(crown)Na^-, but at a high school level this is probably true enough

I really didn't know that alkal metals can have -1...
Can you give us anu example!?
We've learned that I and II always have +1(I) and +2(II)

[sjb]

I'm trying to find my notes on this, suffice to say *at high school level*, it's probably best to say that group I metals only form the M⁺ ion.