[billnotgatez]

So this is the answer to the catalyst questions posted here???

-----------------------------------------
Ethanol to Ether
 
   H H             H H    
   | |             | |    
 H-C-C-0-H  +  H-0-C-C-H  
   | |             | |    
   H H             H H    
                          
   NaOH              
  ------------------->    
  standard room temp      
                          
   H H   H H              
   | |   | |              
 H-C-C-0-C-C-H  +  H-0-H  
   | |   | |              
   H H   H H              
 
-----------------------------------------
Ethanol to Butanol
 
   H H           H H      
   | |           | |      
 H-C-C-0-H  +  H-C-C-0-H  
   | |           | |      
   H H           H H      
                          
  Lithium Aluminium Hydride               
  ------------------->    
  standard room temp      
                          
   H H H H                
   | | | |                
 H-C-C-C-C-0-H  +  H-0-H  
   | | | |                
   H H H H                

-----------------------------------------
 

Thank you for responding
Regards,
Bill

[billnotgatez]

I have recently had time to research Lithium Aluminium Hydride and it will not do. It reacts violently with water. As we know the best ethanol to water ratio is 95% unless you do extensive drying techniques. Also I am not sure that Sodium Hydroxide is the correct catalyst for the ether formula as well.

So I again put out my plea for suggestions on the 2 formulas above as far as catalyst – keeping in mind the desire to accomplish the reactions at room temperature.

Regards,
Bill

[Mitch]

It can't be this difficult, give me a day or 2 to come up with a synthetic plan.

[Donaldson Tan]

NaBH₄ can substitute LiAlH₄

FYI, LiAlH₄ is used with a dry medium, usually dry ether.

[hmx9123]

Try not to use LAH if you can help it.  And don't dump it into EtOH or vice versa.  I was the witness of a spectacular (and dangerous) accidental fire from that exact combination.  There was some lithium compound so it burned a pretty red color, but that stuff is really nasty.  It took nearly 2 L of liquid nitrogen to put the fire out.

[jdurg]

A short couple of years ago there was a huge LAH fire around here at the Pfizer research facility in Groton, CT.  One of the LAH tanks in storage sprung a leak and the liquid came rushing out of the tank and immediately catching fire.  A bunch of people were hurt and the fire could be seen for miles.  Thankfully, the pharmaceutical company had the funding and werewithall to prevent the accident from becoming a major hazard.

[billnotgatez]

NaBH4 sodium borohydrate seems to be a very interesting substance

[hmx9123]

Just so people don't get the wrong idea: LAH is a solid at RT, but Jdurg was most likely talking about a solution of it.

Also, NaBH₄ is sodium borohydride, not borohydrate.  It is a much more easily handled reducing agent, although not as powerful.

[nocommentes]

You are thinking about conversion of ethanol to buthanol in one step using only a "catalist"!!! Is it a joke?!! :confused1:

[tasmodevil44]

There is a new and emerging field of chemistry nowadays.I don't know how many people are aware of it.It is radiochemistry.This is not to be confused with radioactivity or radioactive tracer compounds.But instead entails the use of radio waves as a catalyst to stimmulate chemical reactions.As far-fetched and whacky as this idea might seem,it would be interesting to see if a certain particular frequency of microwave radiation could coax ethanol molecules together to form butanol.It might be a more energy efficient process if it could do this at lower temperatures.There are over 10 million different frequencies to choose from.And different substances are sensitive to various different frequencies.
     
      For example:Inventor John Kanzius has experimented with the idea that radio waves can kill cancer cells.But he accidentally discovered that just the right frequency can break apart water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen.

      There are many more examples:coal can be converted to liquid hydrocarbons.It may be more efficient than Fisher-Tropsh method.A radio transmitter can be placed down an old depleted oil well.It can breakdown long hydrocarbon chains of tar into shorter hydrocarbons that can be pumped out.Old discarded rubber tires can be converted to renewable diesel fuel.Just dial in the right frequency for the right material and only who knows what might happen?

      Furthermore,in addition to over 10 million frequencies to play with,different combinations of frequencies may be possible.Or radio waves may be used in conjunction with physical material catalysts.Even more combinations of possibilities may be possible if high frequncy ultrasound is added to this growing arsenal of potential catalysts.All of these could be utilized individually or in combination.

      What I find interesting about all this is that the stimmulated agitation of molecules by employing radio and/or sound waves (and possibly in conjunction with physical catalysts as well) may be more energy efficient than utilization of thermal energy for chemical reactions.This may make possible all kinds of chemical changes at lower temperatures.....including perhaps a more efficient conversion of ethanol to butanol? Or maybe my whacky suggestions are just nuts.What do you people out there think? I'd very much like some feedback on these ideas.

     

[Arkcon]

What do you people out there think?     

Briefly, your text blub contains one reference.  An admittedly cursory review of the literature {wikipedia} shows John Kanzius to be a not particularly reliable source.  I'm afraid that puts most of your text into the highly suspect arena.  My very basic knowledge of electromagnetism tells me that radio waves have very little energy to impart, by definition, so their effects on matter a very weak.  But I'd be interested in perusing some sort of peer reviewed journal on the subject, the Nature article referenced in the wikipedia article for example, as well as the nanogold targeted cancer therapy.

[tasmodevil44]

Once again,on the subject of ethanol conversion to a more desirable fuel,I find it interesting to recall the fact that certain types of zeolite catalysts have been in existence for a long time now that can convert methane and methanol to gasoline.In the process, they split-off water molecules from the H and OH ends of the methanol.
     
      I wonder if these zeolites or somethig similar can convert ethanol alcohol instead of methanol alcohol into gasoline and/or butanol.Because ethanol is a slightly larger molecule than methanol,it may not fit into a methanol active site of the zeolite and require a different type of zeolite or other catalyst when ethanol is substituted for methanol.

      Furthermore,these zeolite catalysts only operate at high temperatures,which means high energy cosumption and diminished returns as far as energy invested in the process.

      Which brings me back to the interesting idea that I already posted on this website earlier:the stimmulated agitation of molecules by radio and/or sound energy substituted in place of thermal energy to speed-up chemical reactions.

      I wonder if there may be certain microwave and/or ultrasonic frequencies that may coax zeolites and other catalysts to perform at lower temperatures.Anything to make a process more energy efficient and less costly (Less alcoholic drinking for myself vs.more alcoholic drinking for my car's engine...Heh,heh,heh).

[tasmodevil44]

I would like to respond to the closed-minded claim by ARKON that most of what I said is in doubt or suspect.Microwave energy sure imparts a lot of heat to water in a microwave oven.And I'm not asking ARKON or anybody else to take my word for anything.There are other examples,like I stated before,of things that other inventors have accomplished...such as breaking down molecules of rubber in old used tires into renewable diesel fuel with microwaves.The inventor who did this was somebody else instead of Kanzius (can't remember the name right off-hand...maybe it will come to me later).And when it comes to energy intensiveness for getting things done,high frequncy ultrasound is no wimp either.It sure has a lot of ummph to it when focused onto kidney gallstones and even it's ability to blast through solid rock (some have even suggested improvising the use of ultrasound for unconventional oil and gas drilling).I still think that radio and/or sound,when used individually or in combination,could help initiate many chemical reactions that may not normally occur on their own.Research other people's claims yourself.Such inventions and chemical conversion methods are starting to gain the attention of others in the science,physics,and business community.

[Borek]

I would like to respond to the closed-minded claim by ARKON that most of what I said is in doubt or suspect.

You better reread his post. He doesn't claim you are wrong, he states that he will be interested in seeing some peer reviewed publications on the subject. That's not the same thing.

Microwave energy sure imparts a lot of heat to water in a microwave oven.

Single microwave usually doesn't carry enough energy to start any chemical reaction. You need something much closer to visible light for that. E=hν. In microwave owen you use a lot of microwaves, so you transfer a lot of energy on the whole - but in very small portions. Your other example - breaking rubber into diesel fuel - is IMHO an example of thermocracking and microwaves are used as a convenient way of transferring energy, they don't play any crucial role in the chemistry of the process.

I agree with Arkcon - my chemistry knowledge makes me doubt radio frequencies can be used for chemical reaction initiation. It doesn't mean they can't work in some interesting circumstances and I will be happy to learn about such achievements from a reliable source.

[billnotgatez]

When I originally posted this item my thoughts were more mundane. During fermentation the sugars are not always used up. As the ethanol produced increases it eventually kills off the yeast. I thought that if the ethanol was removed as it was produced that all of the sugar would be consumed. Since I read somewhere that butanol was less soluble in water than ethanol. I thought I would tinker with the process as a citizen scientist. I was not necessarily hoping for an extensive polymerization into longer chain process. Due to the long time since I did any organic chemistry I polled the list to get some ideas. To accomplish the task and have the both processes coexist certain limits had to be put on the environment. The optimum would be that the yeast changes the sugar to yeast and the carbon dioxide and ethanol turned into butanol rise to the top.  So the process had to happen in a typical room. High temperatures would kill the yeast. So I requested a catalyst that might lower the activation energy needed to convert ethanol to butanol. It appears that it is not something handy in the textbooks.

Since the post, I have learned that they are now working on direct  butanol fermentation (or the like). Also the odor to ethanol is not as repugnant to humans as butanol.