[theframes]

 Hi, I'm a first year math and physics student (more math than physics) and I've been teaching myself (introducing myself to) chemistry through Linus Pauling's book "General Chemistry" (a recommendation taken from this site). I'm just curious about the ideal level of physics one should know before studying chemistry in-depth.. I think that a lot of the physical concepts they discuss are fairly advanced, for example, they talk about temperature and thermodynamics before I've even studied that in physics. It feels like I'm reading a history book just taking the facts as they are - should I study more physics before trying again? thank you

[cliverlong]

Maybe

The Elements of Physical Chemistry, 3rd Ed. (Paperback) by Peter W. Atkins (Author)

and /or

Four Laws That Drive the Universe (Hardcover) by Peter Atkins (Author)  (about Thermodynamics)

will be at the right level and most relevant to a chemistry course.

For an introduction to general chemistry I really like the free online book from Mark Bishop

http://preparatorychemistry.com/

Clive

Clive

[Yggdrasil]

Introductory chemistry requires only a basic knowledge of physics (e.g. Newton's laws, some E&M).  Here, the material is presented to give you a basic intuition of how chemical systems behave and present some relevant equations.  Going deeper into chemistry to understand where these equations come from and how to prove them from first principles, however, requires a deeper knowledge of physics (although most physical chemistry courses will teach you the relevant physics.  For example, thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, and statistical mechanics are all taught in both physics and chemistry departments.  I come from a biochemistry/physical chemistry background and the quantum mechanics I learned in my undergraduate chemistry courses was enough to prepare me for some of the graduate quantum mechanics classes I took through the physics department in grad school).

[theframes]

 thanks a lot for the replies guys, it's settled then - I was just worried that I would have to take these laws for granted as long as I'm studying chemistry (or even as long as I can bear). Perhaps Pauling's book just presents the more advanced physics in the beginning as an enticer? I've heard that it is a really good book, so I won't toss it yet, I'll see if it starts to pipe down on the quantum mechanics later on.

  I was wondering how Newton's laws would be relevant to chemistry, chemistry is at an atomic level, would Newton's laws apply? Perhaps this is a misconception of mine, so I'd like to know

thank you

[renge ishyo]

Perhaps Pauling's book just presents the more advanced physics in the beginning as an enticer? I've heard that it is a really good book, so I won't toss it yet, I'll see if it starts to pipe down on the quantum mechanics later on.

  I was wondering how Newton's laws would be relevant to chemistry, chemistry is at an atomic level, would Newton's laws apply? Perhaps this is a misconception of mine, so I'd like to know.

I think it is a good idea to do beginning physics first and then beginning chemistry as the theory of physics underlies the study of chemistry. It doesn't mean you can't study beginning chemistry without it; it is just that chemistry will be much easier to understand if you handle physics first.

Don't be discouraged by the difficulty in the beginning of Pauling's General Chemistry (yes, it IS difficult even if you know what he is talking about). He goes through atomic structure first which means quantum mechanics. It would be a good idea to know the basics of quantum mechanics (you learn this at the end of a second semester introductory physics course) before reading Pauling. What I suggest doing is this: finish both your introduction to physics classes and intro to chem classes first and then read Pauling's book on a summer break to reinforce and build a more advanced understanding of what you learned previously. You will get much more out of it if you have some idea of what is going on first. Also, a word of advice...don't go after every little detail in the book. It's not necessary. The power of this book is that it builds a general "feel for Chemistry" in the same way that Feynman's Lectures on Physics builds a "feel for Physics". That "feel" is absolutely indespensible and if you are not ready for the difficulty yet (both books are murder unless you have already achieved at least a basic understanding of the concepts first) just set it aside and read it later. It's worth it to read it *at some point*, trust me. That and Pauling's The Nature of the Chemical Bond (which should be read after General Chem ).

Newton's laws are important in chemistry in subtle ways. For instance, Newton's laws are at the foundation of the concept of "weight" and "mass". A big part of chemistry is learning how to distinguish one atom or compound from another and this is typically done by mass and other physical properties. Also, much of the kinetic theory of gases ultimately has its derivation that involves "Newtonian" concepts of pressure, velocity, etc. Not to mention that Thermodynamic concepts such as "work" and energy should be established from Newtonian mechanics first before they are seriously studied in abstract form. You won't be calculating planetary orbits to be sure, but Newton's laws are everywhere in chemistry hiding in a bunch of little cracks. It is only when you go into depth and have a close look at atoms and molecule's that you need to forgo Newton's laws and rely on the quantum mechanics.

[theframes]

Perhaps Pauling's book just presents the more advanced physics in the beginning as an enticer? I've heard that it is a really good book, so I won't toss it yet, I'll see if it starts to pipe down on the quantum mechanics later on.

  I was wondering how Newton's laws would be relevant to chemistry, chemistry is at an atomic level, would Newton's laws apply? Perhaps this is a misconception of mine, so I'd like to know.

I think it is a good idea to do beginning physics first and then beginning chemistry as the theory of physics underlies the study of chemistry. It doesn't mean you can't study beginning chemistry without it; it is just that chemistry will be much easier to understand if you handle physics first.

Don't be discouraged by the difficulty in the beginning of Pauling's General Chemistry (yes, it IS difficult even if you know what he is talking about). He goes through atomic structure first which means quantum mechanics. It would be a good idea to know the basics of quantum mechanics (you learn this at the end of a second semester introductory physics course) before reading Pauling. What I suggest doing is this: finish both your introduction to physics classes and intro to chem classes first and then read Pauling's book on a summer break to reinforce and build a more advanced understanding of what you learned previously. You will get much more out of it if you have some idea of what is going on first. Also, a word of advice...don't go after every little detail in the book. It's not necessary. The power of this book is that it builds a general "feel for Chemistry" in the same way that Feynman's Lectures on Physics builds a "feel for Physics". That "feel" is absolutely indespensible and if you are not ready for the difficulty yet (both books are murder unless you have already achieved at least a basic understanding of the concepts first) just set it aside and read it later. It's worth it to read it *at some point*, trust me. That and Pauling's The Nature of the Chemical Bond (which should be read after General Chem ).

Newton's laws are important in chemistry in subtle ways. For instance, Newton's laws are at the foundation of the concept of "weight" and "mass". A big part of chemistry is learning how to distinguish one atom or compound from another and this is typically done by mass and other physical properties. Also, much of the kinetic theory of gases ultimately has its derivation that involves "Newtonian" concepts of pressure, velocity, etc. Not to mention that Thermodynamic concepts such as "work" and energy should be established from Newtonian mechanics first before they are seriously studied in abstract form. You won't be calculating planetary orbits to be sure, but Newton's laws are everywhere in chemistry hiding in a bunch of little cracks. It is only when you go into depth and have a close look at atoms and molecule's that you need to forgo Newton's laws and rely on the quantum mechanics.

 Thanks a lot of the great post.
I guess I should look for another book, one that is a bit more introductory. I would like to start studying chemistry, so is there a good book I could read that would be a more usual read for introductory chemistry? What would first-year chemistry students read if they haven't gone through physics yet? I looked at "Elements of Physical Chemistry" By Atkins and it looks a bit more specialized, so I don't think that would be a good introductory text for me.  I assumed that Pauling's book would be suited for me, since it was the only book that was on both "high school and first year" recommendations, so I didn't think that it could be too difficult - I guess  I was wrong though

 It's interesting to know how Newton's laws can apply to chemistry, I actually thought that they didn't.

 Thanks a lot guys! Great advice/help.

[theframes]

 Okay I found a book called "Chemistry: The Molecular Nature of Matter and Change" by Martin Silberberg, this looks like a promising read!

 But should I start with this general chemistry book, or organic chemistry? It looks like some courses start with organic chemistry

[Yggdrasil]

Start with general chemistry. Before moving on to organic chemistry, you should familiarize yourself with the basics about the structure of atoms and molecules (e.g. ideas about atomic and molecular orbitals, the geometry of molecules, lone pairs, polarity, resonance), basic thermodynamics (equilibrium, heats of reaction, entropy, free energy), basic chemical kinetics, and acid/base reactions (the ideas behind acid/base reactions are very useful for understanding many reactions in organic chemistry).

[theframes]

Start with general chemistry. Before moving on to organic chemistry, you should familiarize yourself with the basics about the structure of atoms and molecules (e.g. ideas about atomic and molecular orbitals, the geometry of molecules, lone pairs, polarity, resonance), basic thermodynamics (equilibrium, heats of reaction, entropy, free energy), basic chemical kinetics, and acid/base reactions (the ideas behind acid/base reactions are very useful for understanding many reactions in organic chemistry).

 Thanks, I'll do that. I only asked because the chem course I'm looking at will assume knowledge of "introductory organic chemistry" (I suppose high school level?) . I guess I have a year to catch up though

thanks again