[caldwell]

I have recently developed an interest in conductive polymers.  I would like to create a home chemistry lab to begin synthesizing these polymers, but I don't know where to purchase the monomers and reagents that I need.

For example, I'm trying to find someone who supplies 3,4-ethylenedioxythiophene monomers in ~1-100 gram quantities - in addition to solvents and oxidizing reagents (like FeCl3) to initiate polymerization. 

Sigma-aldrich won't touch me because I'm an individual and not a company.  Can someone suggest a place that I can purchase these chemicals - at a reasonable price?

Thank you!

[OC pro]

Nowhere. I am strictly against home labs from "pseudo-chemists". Do you have a related scientific background?

[Borek]

I am strictly against home labs from "pseudo-chemists".

That's your private opinion. You are entitled to one.

[MissPhosgene]

You could try a small chemical supplier. They may be more willing to sell to individuals. You could look on Sci-Finder to see a listing of companies who manufacture the chemicals you are looking for.

Home-chemistry has to be incredibly expensive. Have you thought about how you are going to analyze what you make? I assume you aren't having any trouble finding a lab that will do analysis and characterization for you.

[408]

Nowhere. I am strictly against home labs from "pseudo-chemists". Do you have a related scientific background?

That's your private opinion. You are entitled to one.

Excellent Borek.

Now for my private opinion.

People like you "OC pro" are destroying science, and are at the root of the stupidification of society.  Prior to the last 50 years science at home was commonplace, now because people like you power tripping on telling others what they can and cannot do on their private property, we see kids who would rather play video games rather than play with chemistry sets.  There are journals from the 50s called the Journal of Amateur Chemistry, but thanks to the mentality of those like you, such support for DIY science has dried up.  

Who is to be the future scientists other than those who develop an interest in it?  Interest is cultivated from experience and vast numbers of chemists I know have their stories from when they were 14 and made nitrogen triiodide or made their own fireworks.  Far greater numbers of scientists I know have some experience with DIY chemistry prior to their formal training, than those that do not.  In fact my supervisor and I trade stories about our various chemical adventures in our youth.

Goodyear performed the first vulcanization of rubber on his stove.
Nobel performed early work with nitroglycerine in a shed outside stockholm
Bakelite was invented in a home lab
Scheele, discoverer of more things than I care to list, did his work in his shed over 20 years, while working as a pharmacist during the day
Perkin discovered Mauvine at home
The Hall process isolating Al from cryolite was done in a backyard
Nitrocellulose was discovered by schoenbien in a kitchen

But hey, none of that matters as they were "pseudo-chemists", right?

To get back to the original question.  If you are in the US, maybe ask Elemental Scientific if they can get it for you.  They even shipped me things in the past, and I was in Canada back then.  Are you trying to make PEDOT(I have some light-emitting conductive polymer research under my belt from a while ago, and I took experiments home to finish on a regular basis.)?  I have been out of the home chemistry game for a few years now thanks to being allowed total academic freedom(where I do not pay for my chemicals out of pocket!), so my suppliers list is out of date.  Sometimes photography suppliers will order things for you, jdphotochem did for me before they went out of business.


MissPhosgene:  It is expensive.  literature compounds are easy enough to characterize cheaply, but doing anything new, the NMRs get expensive. But if just recreational for own interest, the only price is glass and chemicals.

[hobobot]

Nowhere. I am strictly against home labs from "pseudo-chemists". Do you have a related scientific background?

I'm going to jump on the flame train because this also made me angry. Being able to do experiments at home is the single most important educational tool for any discipline.

On another note, a quick google search showed: http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/ProductDetail.do?D7=0&N5=Product%20No.|BRAND_KEY&N4=483028|ALDRICH&N25=0&QS=ON&F=SPEC
Looks like 10g for about 50 bucks. That's all I could find.

I also recommend sci-finder.

[OC pro]

Hey folks...seems I started something with my post. Seriously, would the chemical companies spend billions of dollars if research would be that easy? Modern inventions can not be made in the "backyard". I know what I write since I´m working in the pharmaceutical research as head of laboratory for several years. 

I agree, running a home lab will be very expensive (I am spending 600.000 EUR every year with my technicians just for chemicals  ).
Used labware can be found on ebay. Recently, I have even seen a GC-MS listed.
  
@408: I do agree some of your arguments. I am certainly not the guy who wants to deter young people from making science. But I am a bit concerned about the safety and health issue.

[Doc Oc]

I think OC pro has a point, although I disagree with the tone of his post.  The times and laws have changed a lot since the days that people were doing recreational chemistry in their houses.  It's unfortunate, but the reality is that most of the home chemistry that the police deal with is for illicit drugs.  If they heard that someone was running chemistry experiments in their house I doubt they would come over and ask friendly questions about it.  A grad student from a California university was arrested a few years ago for having a meth lab in his basement.  If you were a police officer and you had to arrest a Ph.D student for starting a meth lab, what would you think about someone else doing chemistry in their house?

[caldwell]

Thank you for the sci-finder suggestions.  It turns out that I have access through my university, at least until I graduate. 

408, yes I am trying to make PEDOT.  It's probably best to start producing a well known polymer and then branch out from there.  I found a great lab guide from Professor Tolbert at UCLA about producing electrochromic devices based on PEDOT.  I think this would be a great way to get my feet wet with a home lab while familiarizing myself with the state of the art.

OC pro, I appreciate your perspective, however I think there is quite a difference between pharmaceutical research / drug design and polymer chemistry.  If the chemistry can be performed safely and all of the safety protocols used in college o-chem classes are followed then I don't see a problem with it.  Producing polymers is much less dangerous than etching concrete with muriatic acid yet I can purchase muriatic acid at the local store. 

The rate that scientific discoveries are made is proportional to how accessible science is to curious-minded individuals.   I wouldn't mind if only the highly-toxic or pyrophoric chemicals were not available for purchase to the public, but you must admit that's it's ridiculous that I can't even purchase ITO glass from Sigma.

Thanks again!

[OC pro]

@caldwell: Please apologize for my aggressive tone. I didn´t wanted to rain on your parade.
But I have always a bad feeling when people want to start doing chemistry at home. Sure, polymer chemistry is way easier than hardcore organic chemistry but don´t underestimate it. Especially the monomers and some reagents can be very toxic.

[orgopete]

I generally suggest you start with your homeowners insurance company. You know those safety glasses are there because of the possibility of an accident. Will you be covered if you burn your house down?

[hobobot]

This article may be interesting for you.  I know it's a heat conductor and an electrical insulator. Which is the exact opposite of what you're trying to do... but I just recently saw it and I thought you would find it intriguing.

http://web.mit.edu/press/2010/heat-nanofibers.html

[408]

Modern inventions can not be made in the "backyard". I know what I write since I´m working in the pharmaceutical research as head of laboratory for several years. 

  
@408: I do agree some of your arguments. I am certainly not the guy who wants to deter young people from making science. But I am a bit concerned about the safety and health issue.

Point 1: My PhD work includes a carry over from an experiment I did at home several years ago.  This allowed me to jump right into PhD work and publish soon after starting.  Agreed regarding pharmaceutical research, far too expensive when one little synthon costs >100 dollars for 0.1g.  But chemistry is more than just pharmaceutical research, and much can be done at home, safely, and while making new discoveries.

Point2:  Then why are you telling them not to do chemistry at home?  By all means tell them not to distill alkyl perchlorates or anhydrous HCN, but no need to rain on their parade when it is relatively harmless.

I think OC pro has a point, although I disagree with the tone of his post.  The times and laws have changed a lot since the days that people were doing recreational chemistry in their houses.  It's unfortunate, but the reality is that most of the home chemistry that the police deal with is for illicit drugs.  If they heard that someone was running chemistry experiments in their house I doubt they would come over and ask friendly questions about it.  A grad student from a California university was arrested a few years ago for having a meth lab in his basement.  If you were a police officer and you had to arrest a Ph.D student for starting a meth lab, what would you think about someone else doing chemistry in their house?

So because other people do illegal things with chemistry, one should not do legal things in chemistry?  A right not exercised is a right lost.  Home chemistry is legal.  Drug cooking is not.  There is a difference...  Just because some people do illicit things with chemistry, does not mean you must stop doing legal chemistry.  Do people stop renting Ryder trucks just because it can and has been used for other purposes?

[Doc Oc]

That's not the point.  The point is that in our modern litigious society doing recreational chemistry at home is more of a pain in the neck than back 50 or 60 years ago when Goodyear discovered vulcanized rubber.

Yes, if people are curious that's great and nobody should be discouraged from that.  But these types of experiments don't come without cost.  If the police or even the EPA become aware of what you're doing you could be in for a serious headache, despite your best intentions.  It's important to be aware of these things and to be careful.  Like I said, most of the times a police officer has had any experience with chemistry it's usually a drug lab.  It'll be hard to shake that bias from their head if you have to explain yourself for some reason.

[pacifyer]

Did you look for providers overseas?

Maybe one from China:
http://www.chemblink.com/products/126213-50-1.htm