[Tittywahah]

""muriatic acid to dissolve the copper salts.  I realize it won't dissolve copper,"" 

Just as a side note, Copper will dissolve in HCL.  One of two things you need, (if you want to do this ever), add H2O2. or a cheaper way, insert a tube from an aquarium pump.  I could give you all the copper ion interchange details on why if you want.  But suffice it to say that all you need is a source of oxygen in the HCL to dissolve copper.  I often etched copper with copper chloride solution.  I just used an aquarium pump to keep the oxygen level at a certain level and regularly titrated to make sure my copper chloride was always at an appropriate level, ionically speaking.  Anyway that was a side note.

As for selling, I have no idea, never done that, pity you are in USA, I would purchase some silver from you - sure we could have come to an amicable arrangement.  As it is I am running out of sterling silver bits, so may well have to purchase a silver coin soon.  Pity, I enjoyed complicating my life with the impure stuff.

[Bushka]

""muriatic acid to dissolve the copper salts.  I realize it won't dissolve copper,"" 

Just as a side note, Copper will dissolve in HCL.  One of two things you need, (if you want to do this ever), add H2O2. or a cheaper way, insert a tube from an aquarium pump.  I could give you all the copper ion interchange details on why if you want.  But suffice it to say that all you need is a source of oxygen in the HCL to dissolve copper.

Interesting that you've done that.  I was reading some stuff on needing an "oxidizing" acid, and that peroxide would help.  I didn't realize an air pump would do it, too.  I think the problem with an oxidizing acid like nitric, is that it will dissolve the silver, too.  I'm assuming the HCl/peroxide or air method would tend to dissolve silver as well?  Maybe the silver would dissolve and immediately precip out as AgCl?  I think I read that somewhere.

[Tittywahah]

Yes, 2Ag+2HCl=2AgCl+H2

Notice that you need to do this stoichemetry, accurately.  Although I have to add that if you don't then Ag+HCl will not react.  You need two moles of silver and two moles of HCl for a reaction.  However I have never done this so I actually can not tell you why you need two moles of each in order to start a reaction - as I said I am no chemist and this frustrates me sometimes - logic dictates that if Two moles react then why not one?  I confess a lack of insight here.  But if anyone is reading this please tell me why.

[Bushka]

Yes, 2Ag+2HCl=2AgCl+H2

Notice that you need to do this stoichemetry, accurately.  Although I have to add that if you don't then Ag+HCl will not react.  You need two moles of silver and two moles of HCl for a reaction.  However I have never done this so I actually can not tell you why you need two moles of each in order to start a reaction - as I said I am no chemist and this frustrates me sometimes - logic dictates that if Two moles react then why not one?  I confess a lack of insight here.  But if anyone is reading this please tell me why.

I can tell you.  You don't really need 2 moles of each, but to balance the equilibrium equation you provided above, you need 2 moles each of Ag and HCl if you want to represent 1 mole of H2.  Notice it takes 2 moles of HCl to liberate one mole of H2.  You could also write:

Ag + HCl <=> AgCl(s) + 1/2H2

The (s) indicates a solid or precipitate and the 1/2H2 shows a half mole of H2 liberated.  It's simply a matter of how you want to show the equilibrium.  Of course in this example you said you are also providing oxygen through either the bubbler or peroxide, so that should really be in the equation as there will be no reaction between Ag and HCl without the oxygen.

[Tittywahah]

Funny, I was just searching for some insight on this and found this article after a reference stated that the above reaction is impossible:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0021979706006710
I will digest your answers though.  Yes because in any reaction with HCl hydrogen HAS to be a product, is that why?

[Bushka]

Funny, I was just searching for some insight on this and found this article after a reference stated that the above reaction is impossible:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0021979706006710
I will digest your answers though.  Yes because in any reaction with HCl hydrogen HAS to be a product, is that why?

Not sure exactly what you are asking/saying.  However, and I'm going back 30 years, electronegativity is what determines whether a metal will dissolve in a strong acid like HCl (I'm sure there are other factors, and someone will correct me).  In order to dissolve the metal, the H+ ion from the HCl solution has to be able to strip away an electron from the metal, thereby forming H2 and an ionized atom of metal.  For metals like gold and platinum, their electronegativies are higher than hydrogen, so they are able to hold onto their electrons.  If you look up an electronegativity table like here: http://tinyurl.com/alojvc8 you'll see that silver actually has a slightly lower number then hydrogen.  So, it should dissolve, slowly, as I understand it.  However I'm reading that since AgCl is so highly insoluble, it forms a protective shell over the silver, and prevents any further attack by the acid.  Aluminum apparently forms an impenetrable shell of aluminum oxide under certain acidic conditions, and cannot be dissolved further.  On the other hand, the H+ from nitric acid IS able to dissolve silver because silver nitrate is soluble and cannot form a protective shell, unlike AgCl.

Not sure if that's what you were getting at...

[Borek]

electronegativity is what determines whether a metal will dissolve in a strong acid

You are confusing electronegativity with reactivity series.

[Tittywahah]

<<Not sure exactly what you are asking/saying.>>  Sorry was getting slightly confused in my writing.  What I meant was that this reaction: 2Ag+2HCl=2AgCl+H2 is often stated as being impossible; but that the article I read (link given above) proves otherwise when it comes to silver nano particles.  A bit off tangent regards conversation, I was just investigating it myself since I have never used silver chloride or had a use for it yet and therefore needed to do some speed reading.  Trouble is so many people say that silver and HCl do not react, as they often do with copper and HCl, well I get a little bemused at these people because clearly these chemicals do react with each other under certain conditions, so one should qualify these statements by adding this.  I believe.

[Bushka]

electronegativity is what determines whether a metal will dissolve in a strong acid

You are confusing electronegativity with reactivity series.

I'm sure you're right.  I did a bit of googling of the terms, but it seems to me that electronegativity and reactivity are almost the same thing.  Intuitively aren't we really talking about how "badly" the metal wants to hang on to its electrons, vs hydrogen's ability to grab it?  Electronegativity seems a more straightforward way to understand it.  On the other hand I don't want to be spreading bad info, so correct me where I'm wrong.

Thanks!

[Bushka]

Trouble is so many people say that silver and HCl do not react, as they often do with copper and HCl, well I get a little bemused at these people because clearly these chemicals do react with each other under certain conditions, so one should qualify these statements by adding this.  I believe.

Yes, you're right.  Maybe that's why there is so much conflicting (to me) information on how to refine silver or silver chloride.  Somebody says, "just dissolve it in ammonia."  OK, but if you look at the solubilities I'll end up needing 10 gallons of ammonia.

[Borek]

I did a bit of googling of the terms, but it seems to me that electronegativity and reactivity are almost the same thing.

No, they are not. They are not completely unrelated, but if you you will take a closer look at the table you have posted, electronegativities of gold, sulfur and iodine are pretty close to each other, yet sulfur and iodine are highly reactive, while gold is very inert.

[Borek]

Just as a side note, Copper will dissolve in HCL.  One of two things you need, (if you want to do this ever), add H2O2. or a cheaper way, insert a tube from an aquarium pump.

Then you are dissolving copper not in the HCl, but in the mixture of HCl and additional oxidizing agent. That's not the same.

I suppose you would not say calcium carbonate dissolves in water - but by your logic it does, you just need to add some HCl.

[Tittywahah]

Just as a side note, Copper will dissolve in HCL.  One of two things you need, (if you want to do this ever), add H2O2. or a cheaper way, insert a tube from an aquarium pump.

Then you are dissolving copper not in the HCl, but in the mixture of HCl and additional oxidizing agent. That's not the same.

I suppose you would not say calcium carbonate dissolves in water - but by your logic it does, you just need to add some HCl.

Well, I agree with your point to an extent.  No I would never say that CaCO3 dissolves in water - it does not.  However my logic with regard to copper and silver is that what you are adding is already there in solution, just not enough that's all - Oxygen. Not being a chemist I see that Oxygen - yes can be an oxidizing agent - but on the other hand is not really an ingredient so to speak (obviously I have set myself up for a downfall here).  But let's take gold, I would agree that gold will not react with any of the acids.  The fact that you need to mix HCl and Nitric together to dissolve gold is not the same as saying that gold therefore does react with acids. My only argument is weak I know, but concerns the fact that extra oxygen is all you need to promote the reactions and therefore copper and silver will react with these acids.

[Bushka]

I did a bit of googling of the terms, but it seems to me that electronegativity and reactivity are almost the same thing.

No, they are not. They are not completely unrelated, but if you you will take a closer look at the table you have posted, electronegativities of gold, sulfur and iodine are pretty close to each other, yet sulfur and iodine are highly reactive, while gold is very inert.

I've been reading up some on reactivity (activity) series.  All the sites seem to say pretty much the same thing, but don't explain WHY one element is more reactive than another.  It seems to me that electronegativity is a physical explanation as to why.  I can't speak to electronegativities between gold and iodine, but if we are looking only at transition metals, do elect. values not explain why silver reacts as it does relative to hydrogen, and so on with gold?  In other words, why is it incorrect to say that hydrogen has a greater affinity for electrons than silver, and gold has a greater affinity for them than hydrogen, and that this explains their behavior?

[Bushka]

Well, I agree with your point to an extent.  No I would never say that CaCO3 dissolves in water - it does not.  However my logic with regard to copper and silver is that what you are adding is already there in solution, just not enough that's all - Oxygen. Not being a chemist I see that Oxygen - yes can be an oxidizing agent - but on the other hand is not really an ingredient so to speak (obviously I have set myself up for a downfall here).  But let's take gold, I would agree that gold will not react with any of the acids.  The fact that you need to mix HCl and Nitric together to dissolve gold is not the same as saying that gold therefore does react with acids. My only argument is weak I know, but concerns the fact that extra oxygen is all you need to promote the reactions and therefore copper and silver will react with these acids.

I'm reading your discussion with Mr. Borek, and I think I'm seeing the difference between theory and real world application.  I think it is wise to listen to Mr. Borek because he appears to be a chemist.  In online forums people can say whatever they want, and others might come away with the wrong impression.  So in your world, where you are interested in dissolving silver for commercial reasons or whatever, HCl WILL dissolve silver (or, let's say you can use HCl to dissolve silver) - just make sure you have enough oxygen.  In Mr. Borek's world, there is no reaction between HCl and Ag.  I think it's good and important on forums to be precise.

I think it comes down to semantics.  It's like, "Yeah, you can get HCl to dissolve silver but it's not really just the HCl.  You need enough oxygen."  I wouldn't over argue the point, personally.