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Topic: Bronsted-Lowry acids and bases  (Read 10265 times)

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Offline sinjid9

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Bronsted-Lowry acids and bases
« on: August 21, 2011, 02:58:59 AM »
How does one know the products of a reaction during a reaction for Bronsted and Lowry acids and bases? On a test I had to determine whether KF(aq) was acidic,basic or neutral and for KCH3COO3(aq) as well.

Offline opti384

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Re: Bronsted-Lowry acids and bases
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2011, 08:29:26 AM »
When you determine the pH of salts, try to think about the conjugate acid/base of the cations and the anions and think how the cations or the anions will react in the aqueous solution with water.

Offline Benzenelover

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Re: Bronsted-Lowry acids and bases
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2011, 11:24:54 PM »
This may be a bit off topic, but what is the common name for the KCH3COO3? I tried googling it, and mentally working out the structure, but I couldn't figure it out. Was it a typo, or is it some sort of peroxide or something I'm not taking into consideration?
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Offline sinjid9

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Re: Bronsted-Lowry acids and bases
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2011, 11:57:47 PM »
Yeah I didn't know either, when I asked my teacher about it in the middle of my test, he was like "So Yeah, What's wrong with it?"

Offline sinjid9

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Re: Bronsted-Lowry acids and bases
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2011, 02:24:07 AM »
Also for Bronsted Lowry reactions, I still don't completely understand. Is the only thing that moves in this type of reaction Hydrogen? Cause if so wouldn't KF(aq) dissolved in water produce HKF (aq) + OH? HKF looks too weird


Sorry for double posting but I couldn't modify my previous post for some reason.

Offline Benzenelover

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Re: Bronsted-Lowry acids and bases
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2011, 03:09:33 AM »
Think for a second about hydrofluoric acid. You've probably heard it's reputation as one of the few things that can dissolve glass, right? It's very dangerous, and can do things others can't, but it's actually classified as a weak acid. You probably already learned this, but in case you didn't, I'll say it.

an acid, going by the Bronsted Lowry definition, is any compound that can give away a proton (H+) to a solution.

A Bronsted Lowry base, is any compound that will accept a proton (H+).

A strong acid, is a compound that can easily and efficiently donate it's protons to a solution.

A weak acid, is a compound that does not donate these protons as efficiently.

To give an example, HCl easily disassociates in water. It easily separates into H+ and Cl-. Now, say you have a bunch of HCl molecules. A pretty good percentage of them will separate, while maybe a rare few will stick together. HF (Hydrofluoric acid) is a little bit different. It is classified as a weak acid, because when it separates into solution, giving H+ and F-, that F- anion will attract the H+ back to it. So if you drop HF into water, some of it will separate into H+ and F-, but a percentage of that will attract back to the F- anion, and stay there.

Now, say you have a way to deliver that F- anion, without losing any H+ cations to the solution. It would still want to attract a H+ from somewhere. Water, being a protic solvent, would donate one of the H+ cations from it's structure, forming stable HF, that won't disassociate, and -OH anions floating around in solution. The acceptance of this H+ by the F- classifies the F- as a Bronsted Lowry base.

Now, how do we get this F- anion into that solution? What could we possibly use to carry it? How about everyone's favorite lavender burning alkyl metal friend? It turns out, Potassium (K, or K+ in this case), is a perfect vessel for delivering this F- anion, because the F- anion has little interest in sticking with that K+ cation. So, more H+ cations would be absorbed by the F- than K+ anions would, thus making it a Bronsted Lowry base.

As for the KCH3COO3, I don't even know what the hell that is. I don't even think it exists to be honest. Next time you see your teacher, ask him to draw a lewis structure of it, and if you can, post a picture of the structure, please, because it's really got me stumped. If I had to guess though, the K leads me to believe it's a base.

Eh, hope that helped, and if I was at all inaccurate about anything, it would be appreciated for the higher nerds to correct me.
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Offline Borek

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Re: Bronsted-Lowry acids and bases
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2011, 03:57:30 AM »
Cause if so wouldn't KF(aq) dissolved in water produce HKF (aq) + OH? HKF looks too weird

Ever heard about dissociation? Net ionic reactions? Charges on ions? You ignored them all, no wonder you got something like HKF.
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Offline Vidya

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Re: Bronsted-Lowry acids and bases
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2011, 08:29:20 AM »
KF (aq) -----> K+(aq) + F-(aq)
F- + H2O <----> HF + OH-
you must have heard about acidic salts and basic salts.
so now what can you say about KF?
here you can see F- can accept a proton to form weak acid like HF which is not completely dissociated. second equation shows the formation of HF from F- ions in water.Now from the second equation,you can see the prsence of OH- in the solution and hence it is a basic salt.
I think second compound isKCH3COO (potassium acetate)
 KCH3COO ----> K+   + CH3COO-
CH3COO- + H2O ----> CH3COOH + OH-
so what do you think about this salt?

Offline sinjid9

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Re: Bronsted-Lowry acids and bases
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2011, 06:33:13 PM »
Thanks everyone, I'm not very good with Acid-Base reactions especially Bronsted and Lowry ones.
OH- in the solution and hence it is a basic salt.
I think second compound isKCH3COO (potassium acetate)
 KCH3COO ----> K+   + CH3COO-
CH3COO- + H2O ----> CH3COOH + OH-

Actually I think my teacher intended it to be KCH3COO3(aq). I thought it was wrong during my test too but when I asked him, he told me there was no typo there.

Offline Benzenelover

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Re: Bronsted-Lowry acids and bases
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2011, 11:19:25 PM »
Thanks everyone, I'm not very good with Acid-Base reactions especially Bronsted and Lowry ones.
OH- in the solution and hence it is a basic salt.
I think second compound isKCH3COO (potassium acetate)
 KCH3COO ----> K+   + CH3COO-
CH3COO- + H2O ----> CH3COOH + OH-

Actually I think my teacher intended it to be KCH3COO3(aq). I thought it was wrong during my test too but when I asked him, he told me there was no typo there.

Please ask him to draw a molecular structure of it. If it is a real formula, I'd like to see the structure. If it isn't, he'll probably realize it isn't when he tries to draw it :P.
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Offline Borek

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Re: Bronsted-Lowry acids and bases
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2011, 02:39:12 AM »
IMHO typo, perhaps he intended it to be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peracetic_acid
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Offline Vidya

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Re: Bronsted-Lowry acids and bases
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2011, 03:30:37 AM »
Right Borek
that's is potassium peracetate
but the reasoning going to be same .Peroxyacids are also weak acids

Offline Borek

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Re: Bronsted-Lowry acids and bases
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2011, 05:26:16 AM »
that's is potassium peracetate

No, it is not. Even for peracetate this is still wrong.
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Offline Benzenelover

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Re: Bronsted-Lowry acids and bases
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2011, 02:19:09 AM »
His molecule had like four oxygens at the end, one specified as a separate functional group. I don't think it was intended to be peracetate, unless he got the number of oxygen atoms wrong. I hope he posts a structure soon.
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