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Topic: Sublimation  (Read 7331 times)

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Offline shelley

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Sublimation
« on: September 12, 2012, 11:59:41 PM »
Hi, can you tell me from the list below which of the listed chemicals are able to go through sublimation besides water?
Reagent   Formula
Acetic acid, glacial (conc.)
17.4 M   CH3CO2H
Isoamyl alcohol
(3-methyl -1-butanol)   (CH3)2CH(CH2)2OH
Sulfuric acid, conc.
18 M   H2SO4
Distilled water
   H2O
Diethyl ether
   
5% sodium carbonate (aq)
   Na2CO3 (aq)

Sat. sodium chloride (aq)
(brine)   NaCl(aq)
Calcium chloride (anhydr)
   CaCl2
acetone, wash
   
Isoamyl acetate   CH3CO2C5H11

Offline curiouscat

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Re: Sublimation
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2012, 12:29:10 AM »
What did Mr. Google say?

Offline solyaris

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Re: Sublimation
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2012, 03:52:10 AM »
sublimation =
solid--->gas--->solid
so...
none of the above (liquids)
unless you have a different definition where liquid--->gas--->liquid--->solid is called sublimation.

But then I would check your definition of sublimation - and perhaps correct the person who asked you the question, if they think that any of those liquids sublime.

Offline Dan

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Re: Sublimation
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2012, 05:02:59 AM »
none of the above (liquids)

Not true. Being liquid at 1 bar and 20°C does not mean it cannot be sublimed at lower pressure. Water sublimes below 6 mbar - this occurs in freeze drying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_diagram
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Offline solyaris

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Re: Sublimation
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2012, 05:43:39 AM »
Ok, fair enough. If temperatures and pressures can be changed then...

But in a practical setting, I would melt the sample anyway.. only then it isn't a 'true' sublimation.... but it can be a more efficient sublimation.... especially with an entrainer gas...
but the question wasn't about practical application - so..

Offline Arkcon

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Re: Sublimation
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2012, 07:05:26 AM »
We really don't know enough context from the O.P. to determine that this is a practical or theoretical application.  Although I'd love to see the technical definition of 'true'  or 'efficient' sublimation.
Hey, I'm not judging.  I just like to shoot straight.  I'm a man of science.

Offline solyaris

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Re: Sublimation
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2012, 07:32:18 AM »
I'll give you my technical definition, if I wasn't clear:
"True" sublimation = solid ---> gas ---> solid (with no liquid phases either on heating or cooling).
"Efficient" relates to the degree of separation of compounds/enantiomers/whatever.

Entrainer sublimation is the most efficient means of purification - there's a good chapter in a book Chemical Separations by Clifton E. Meloan - with numbers and equations too!

In practical application, the degree of separation is increased by melting the solid first - so that this is then not a "true" sublimation. But only to a pedant!  ;D

"Ultra-purification" of metals etc. is typically done using entrainer sublimation - because of its "efficiency".  ;)
I believe that the original question was a homework question - and thankfully I don't have to answer it!
Why has someone taken a mole snack?! Is it to discourage contributions or something??? I can take a hint! Bye! ;)

Offline curiouscat

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Re: Sublimation
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2012, 09:26:53 AM »
Not true. Being liquid at 1 bar and 20°C does not mean it cannot be sublimed at lower pressure. Water sublimes below 6 mbar - this occurs in freeze drying.


If that's true what does the phase diagram of substances that don't sublime look like?

The Solid-Vapor Phase Transition Line (Red in fig. below) will always exist, won't it, unless the Triple Point goes all the way down to 0 K? If that's so every substance will sublime, if only at very low pressures?



What am I getting wrong?

Offline Dan

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Re: Sublimation
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2012, 03:09:22 AM »
The Solid-Vapor Phase Transition Line (Red in fig. below) will always exist, won't it, unless the Triple Point goes all the way down to 0 K? If that's so every substance will sublime, if only at very low pressures?

That is also my understanding. Though I think helium is the exception, perhaps there are more.
My research: Google Scholar and Researchgate

Offline solyaris

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Re: Sublimation
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2012, 04:16:32 AM »
The wording of the original question -- "besides water" -- suggests that changes in temperature and pressure are to be considered also - in which case the answer is "they all sublime" - but that rather defeats the purpose of the question - and the solutions would sublime twice - as it were!

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