[DrCMS]

I'm not sure how this is being reported around the world but does it look like the USA will ever realise that it's automatic support of ANY and all actions Israel takes is hurting both America and Israel in the long run? 

The only chance for peace in the region is diplomacy not more warfare.

The way the middle east has changed over the last year and the way it is continuing to change means Israel has even less friends in their neighbourhood.  TV pictures of Israeli air strikes will not be going down well in those countries.

[curiouscat]

Maybe they rate Ideology over Pragmatism?

[discodermolide]

DrCMS, I agree with you, but the years have shown that diplomacy does not work well in this region as both parties are not willing to listen to and sit down with each other. Unless they do that and do it properly there will continue to be flare-ups like this one and the associated unfortunate deaths of the innocent.

[DrCMS]

Well diplomacy by Egypt and the USA does seem to have stopped the deaths on both sides for a day and counting so far, long may that continue.

[discodermolide]

I'm not sure it was diplomacy, more like pressure, lots of it.

[Tittywahah]

It's a pity, that innocent people on both sides are killed.  There are so many jews and arabs living and working together in Israel.  So many good things are happening - but are never the topic of news are they?  An arab on the streets in gaza commented this remark to a news reporter, in fact I believe it was a demonstration, the slogan was clear:  :The Israelis may well have shot at our children but YOU (pointing at Hamas) were the ones that killed them".  (whose very name in Arabic and Hebrew means: 'Violence', in hebrew it a verb meaning 'to be violent').  A Jordanian historian arab once said, if they removed all the jews from the land, the arabs would still have no peace with each other.   The israelis target military objectives and when they kill palestinian civilians it is usually by accident, (not to mention the fact that militants fire rockets from school playgrounds and back gardens); sometimes The Israelis apologise, sometimes they even prosecute their own commanders.  But the militants target civilians and celebrate every death. I am not taking sides against palestinians - I am just fed up with un-balanced reporting a plain good old fashioned historical causeless hatred against the Jewish people.  As I said earlier, many arabs living in Israel have equal rights with their Israeli neighbours, many arab and Jewish children grow up together.   But the arabs living in gaza and west bank. especially gaza are brought up on anti-jewish cartoons, groomed for suicidal missions and their parents paid for the loss of a martyr.  What a society difference there is. What other country in the whole world has ever received such adverse public mis-representation and yet has committed more outrageous atrocities and barbaric acts than Israel?  None!  No one cares to protest about a whole list of them going on today, yet the rockets and the bombings continue, and they will only get reported if Israel strikes back, and Israel never does anything fair - does she?

[DrCMS]

It's a pity, that innocent people on both sides are killed. 

That's about the only thing we agree on but based on the other things you've said I do not think you really mean it.

The israelis target military objectives and when they kill palestinian civilians it is usually by accident, (not to mention the fact that militants fire rockets from school playgrounds and back gardens); sometimes The Israelis apologise, sometimes they even prosecute their own commanders. 

Sure after they've blown up a house and killed an entire family an apology make it all better. 
A civilised country should not use their armed forces to kill women and children while claiming that it's a legitimate target.

I am just fed up with un-balanced reporting a plain good old fashioned historical causeless hatred against the Jewish people. 

Let me be very clear on this I dislike all religions equally so I do not have a hatred of Jews anymore than all other stupid backward religions.  I do hate the Israeli government actions and dislike anybody who supports those actions but that is not based on their religion it's because I think that the things the Israelis do are disproportionate and are causing the world to be a worse place.

many arabs living in Israel have equal rights with their Israeli neighbours, many arab and Jewish children grow up together.   

wow how good of you to give some people rights in their own country

But the arabs living in gaza and west bank. especially gaza are brought up on anti-jewish cartoons, groomed for suicidal missions and their parents paid for the loss of a martyr. 

So when you take those rights away what do you expect; you fence them in and treat them like scum and keep stealing the land from under them.  They have nothing to loose and that breeds radicals who strike back at their oppressors.

[curiouscat]

Sure after they've blown up a house and killed an entire family an apology make it all better. 
A civilised country should not use their armed forces to kill women and children while claiming that it's a legitimate target.

Don't both sides blow up stuff and kill people? I don't see any good reason to blame one side more than the other.

[Tittywahah]

The biggest threat to the world is the inability of man to empathize with another, the unwillingness to forgive even when it hurts, the greed of domineering corporate interests and the inability of leaders to govern with justice.  In essence the whole world is a threat to itself...not any single nation.

[DrCMS]

Sure after they've blown up a house and killed an entire family an apology make it all better. 
A civilised country should not use their armed forces to kill women and children while claiming that it's a legitimate target.

Don't both sides blow up stuff and kill people? I don't see any good reason to blame one side more than the other.

In the recent flare up the death toll on both sides were:
Gaza Deaths: 158 (Includes 103 civilians, of which 30 are children and 13 women)
Israeli Deaths: 6 (Includes 4 civilians, of which two are women)

So yes both sides killed people but one side is a Government with a large and well funded military and that side kills a lot more than the other side.  While they claim to not target civilians they do not seem to care if they kill lots of Palestinian women and children.  So I do blame the side that kills the most innocent civilians.

[curiouscat]

In the recent flare up the death toll on both sides were:
Gaza Deaths: 158 (Includes 103 civilians, of which 30 are children and 13 women)
Israeli Deaths: 6 (Includes 4 civilians, of which two are women)

So yes both sides killed people but one side is a Government with a large and well funded military and that side kills a lot more than the other side.  While they claim to not target civilians they do not seem to care if they kill lots of Palestinian women and children. 

I don't agree with a reasoning based on death counts. Is the better-equipped, well-fortified side of a conflict always wrong just because it skillfully evaded casualties?

So I do blame the side that kills the most innocent civilians.

By that metric how would WW-II look: German civilian deaths far exceeded American.

I don't think comparative death-counts are a good way to judge wars.


PS. I'm no Israel fan-boy; I think there's enough blame to dish out to both sides here.

[DrCMS]

I don't agree with a reasoning based on death counts. Is the better-equipped, well-fortified side of a conflict always wrong just because it skillfully evaded casualties?

In this case it's not not uneven because Israel skillfully evaded causalities it was uneven because the Israeli side did not give a toss how many Arabs they killed to achieve their goal.

So I do blame the side that kills the most innocent civilians.

By that metric how would WW-II look: German civilian deaths far exceeded American.

There were a lot more countries involved in World War 2 than just America and Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_War_II_Casualties.svg

[Tittywahah]

"it was uneven because the Israeli side did not give a toss how many Arabs they killed to achieve their goal".

May I ask you to qualify this remark with personal experience, written quotes from Israelis, statements by leaders, attitudes of the military women and men, conversations you have had with politicians, leaders, mayors, the general public?  Do you have the authoritative voice over men's hearts and know their thoughts and feelings, their prejudices, their kindnesses, their hates and dislikes, their motivations, their personalities?  The only goal of Israel is to live, not to expand their territorial gains, otherwise they would not have given back 75% of the lands captured to Egypt and Syria in 1967.  And let us not forget, unless you imagine that the violence is a direct result of occupation, that the PLO was formed in 1964, three years before there was any west bank or so called palestinian occupation where Jordan denied the rights of arabs in east Jerusalem and Egypt denied all sorts of rights to the arabs in the Gaza strip, where both arab countries oppressed their respective annexed lands - not Israel.  The 1948 war was a direct result of the fact that the 7 arab nations surrounding Israel did not accept the original resolution by the United Nations which gave them MORE land than what they have today.  That they hated a jewish state in their midst and caused the whole refugee problem that exists today.  It was the arab leaders and those that followed them (not all arabs), that hated and killed without mercy.  At a time when the Jewish people were simply glad that they could live somewhere without being persecuted.  Read your history, meet arabs and Israelis, talk to them, study the social developments and the historical situations and learn.  Do not adopt prejudicial views based on popular interpretations fostered by manufactured public opinion.  The irony here is that I have had good arab friends, and have loved the arab kids, they are so full of potential and beauty, and arabs are not mean people at all.  But there is a system in place which denies the public access to the balanced truth of what is really going on behind the deceptive images of rockets and planes.  Millions of German men and women actually believed their leaders' rhetoric about the Jews - how much more can people today be deceived?  When the wagon of propaganda has become so sophisticated and we think we are clever enough never to be fooled again.  History teaches us what we should have learned from history.

[sschoe2]

Lets see on one side we have Israel that only wants to be left alone to go about their business.

On the other side we have an elected terrorist government supported by another rogue nation who wants to annihilate Israel potentially with nuclear weapons that starts lobbing rockets with the intent to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible. They further deliberately use their own civilians as shields out of cowardice and so they can scapegoat Israel when they get killed.

Israel is making every reasonable effort to minimize casualties despite the above but they need to defend themselves.

I know if a country neighboring the USA was firing missiles on our cities I would expect the full armed forces of the US to beat that country into submission even if they need to resort to WWII style carpet bombing.

[Mitch]

Lets see on one side we have Israel that only wants to be left alone to go about their business.

On the other side we have an elected terrorist government supported by another rogue nation who wants to annihilate Israel potentially with nuclear weapons that starts lobbing rockets with the intent to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible. They further deliberately use their own civilians as shields out of cowardice and so they can scapegoat Israel when they get killed.

Israel is making every reasonable effort to minimize casualties despite the above but they need to defend themselves.

I know if a country neighboring the USA was firing missiles on our cities I would expect the full armed forces of the US to beat that country into submission even if they need to resort to WWII style carpet bombing.

All well and true, but the embargo of the West Bank and other issues do not really breed a society that will be enlightened and understanding to Israel. Honestly, there are not any good quick-fix it answers.