[Tittywahah]

This particular equation is rather complicated for me to be able to solve, would someone perhaps be kind enough to demonstrate please
KC4H5O6 + Na2S2O3 + Pb(CH3CO2)=

(potassium bitartrate, sodium thiosulphate and lead 3 acetate)

Its a patina that works very well, I usually solve things by myself but this is too complex for me.  Where do I begin?

[Borek]

These things rarely yield a single product, more like some kind of mixture or mixed salt. Judging from the substances present I would expect PbS between products. Acetate is volatile, so no acetate ions in the final product (or, if they are left, in the log term they will be most likely replaced by carbonate).

[Tittywahah]

Ok Borek, thanks for taking the time.  A mixture of ions in solution was at the back of my mind, rather than a particular product forming.  But I had to ask.

[Arkcon]

Furthermore, many other things could be happening.  Two of the products could react with each other, producing something that then reacts with the other.  Or perhaps one of the chemicals keeps some intermediate stable.  At any rate, to begin to figure this out, you will need to know something about the products.  What is the patina?  What does it look like.  You say its a patina, so it colors some metal, why then do you exclude the metal as a reactant?

[Tittywahah]

Hi Arkcon, Yes I understand this.   The idea of patination, I believe, is a reaction occurs within a recipe that then somehow affects the way light is distributed from off the copper, the re-arrangement of minute particles affects the way light is scattered.  This is my only understanding about the process at its very basic.  Also when I go to adjust a recipe it is always on the basis of which chemical is influencing what, this would have nothing to do with understanding what role, if any, the copper plays.  I am of course open to be fully corrected on anything I said, I would be happy to know if I am wrong in anything.

By the way this particular colour is a stunning peacock blue bordering on purple, very exquisite.

[billnotgatez]

FYI

From
http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/patina-formulas.htm

15. Peacock Blue (Krause)

Sodium thiosulphate    150 g./1.
Lead acetate            25 g.
Cream of tartar         30 g.
Water                    1 liter

A intense, dip process, transparent patina.
Immerse object from 20 to 30 minutes.
A preservative should be applied immediately after the object is removed and dried.

[Tittywahah]

Hallo, I know, this is where I originally got the recipe from.  Nice of you to post this.  But my fascination and interest for chemistry began with photography, then copper working.  Now I like to delve into pure chemistry for its own sake while at the same time understanding the recipes and formulas that I make.  hence the original question.  Hope you understand. kind regards.

[billnotgatez]

@Tittywahah
In your original post you said

and lead 3 acetate)

When I check the The Ganoksin Project site, they only say

Lead acetate      25 g

When I check WIKI, it says

Lead compounds exist mainly in two main oxidation states, +2 and +4. The former is more common. Inorganic lead(IV) compounds are typically strong oxidants or exist only in highly acidic solutions.

Did you mean lead 2 acetate?

[Tittywahah]

Hallo there, yes I am using lead 2 acetate trihydrate I am so sorry, carelessness Tch

[billnotgatez]

Also are you using
Sodium thiosulfate
or
Sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate

[Tittywahah]

The pentahydrate

[billnotgatez]

So just to create a synopsis of what you are mixing to produce Peacock Blue (Krause) Patina

Using per liter of water
-----
Amount used                 30  grams
Name                        Potassium bitartrate (Cream of tartar)
Molecular formula           KC₄H₅O₆
CAS number                  868-14-4
Molar mass                  188.177
-----
Amount used                 150 grams
Name                        Sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate
Molecular formula           Na₂S₂O₃·5H₂O
CAS number                  10102-17-7 (pentahydrate)
                            7772-98-7  (anhydrous)
Molar mass                  248.18 g/mol (pentahydrate)
                            158.11 g/mol (anhydrous)
-----
Amount used                 25  grams
Name                        Lead(II) acetate trihydrate
Molecular formula           Pb(CH₃COO)₂·3H₂O
CAS number                  6080-56-4 (trihydrate)
                            301-04-2  (anhydrous)
Molar mass                  379.33g/mol (trihydrate)
                            325.29 g/mol (anhydrous)
-----


Sources
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_bitartrate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_thiosulfate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%28II%29_acetate

Edit: Added CAS (anhydrous) information later - did not change subsequent posts meaning by others

[Tittywahah]

That's correct.  But I divided everything by 10 and use de-ionized water naturally.  If you are wanting to create the same thing I must say that the depth of the purple increases with more time soaked in solution.  I find that 15 minutes is an absolute minimum to start the colouring process.

[symori]

wowwww... Patina?

Something new for a citizen chemist like me 

[Tittywahah]

Why the sad face with question marks?  It's not complicated at all, just a technique....