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Topic: Help with Nitrile/Aldehyde problem  (Read 6568 times)

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Offline stephanopolous

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Help with Nitrile/Aldehyde problem
« on: March 31, 2014, 07:00:04 PM »
I'm ready to pull my hair out trying to figure out this problem.  I believe it's a combination of steps we've learned but I can't figure out the complete mechanism.
Here is the problem:

C6H5COH  +  CH3CN------>EtO-, EtOH-----> (C9H7N)---->H3O+/heat---->

I believe the C9H7N is telling you that's what you have after the first steps, not telling you to add that.

I have the answer (guessed it correctly) but I want to understand why it's that.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.  So far all I did was a nucleophilic attack on the aldehyde by the nitrile (electrons on the N) to form an intermediate, but I'm not sure where to go from there. 

I looked through all of our power point slides, all of the book chapters we covered, and googled 17,000 different ways that it may come up - nothing.


Offline discodermolide

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Re: Help with Nitrile/Aldehyde problem
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2014, 07:56:20 PM »
What role does the ethoxide/ethanol play here?
I don't think that C9H7N is correct.
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Offline stephanopolous

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Re: Help with Nitrile/Aldehyde problem
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2014, 08:09:41 PM »
I'm not sure what the ethanol/ethoxide do.  I copied this problem straight from the exam and double checked it- that's what the full problem is.  I thought maybe it served as a base to turn the nitrile into something else like an amide but when I wrote that out it didn't work.

Offline discodermolide

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Re: Help with Nitrile/Aldehyde problem
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2014, 08:30:18 PM »
How about this as a first step?
The acetonitrile is deprotonated by the base to give a resonance stabilised anion. This attacks the aldehyde to give the product I drew.
You take it from there.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2014, 08:42:19 PM by discodermolide »
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Offline stephanopolous

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Re: Help with Nitrile/Aldehyde problem
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2014, 08:42:25 PM »
Ok thank you, I'll give it a try.  The final product has no nitrogen in it- so I'm wondering what part of the work-up is taking that off.  The acid wouldn't do that alone right?

Thanks again for drawing that out, that was really nice of you.

Offline discodermolide

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Re: Help with Nitrile/Aldehyde problem
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2014, 08:43:53 PM »
What is your suggestion for the final product?
What happens to nitriles when you treat them with acid?
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Offline stephanopolous

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Re: Help with Nitrile/Aldehyde problem
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2014, 08:45:12 PM »
The product is a carboxylic acid C6H5CH=CHCO2H.

Offline stephanopolous

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Re: Help with Nitrile/Aldehyde problem
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2014, 08:47:23 PM »
Well a nitrile treated with acid forms a carboxylic acid but when the nitrile adds to the aldehyde it's no longer a nitrile correct? 

Offline stephanopolous

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Re: Help with Nitrile/Aldehyde problem
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2014, 08:48:19 PM »
Ohhhh wait I see- so it does turn a nitrile into a carboxylic acid, so is that intermediate still considered a nitrile?

Offline stephanopolous

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Re: Help with Nitrile/Aldehyde problem
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2014, 08:49:56 PM »
I'm also wondering how the double bond in the product is formed.  Does the acid protonate the oh, making it a good leaving group, and then ...?

Offline stephanopolous

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Re: Help with Nitrile/Aldehyde problem
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2014, 08:55:22 PM »
Does the acid do that too?  Ok so there's a secondary alcohol- it will protonate, the acid will come in and take off the hydrogen on that same carbon, the electrons will come up, kick off the water, and form the double bond?

Offline discodermolide

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Re: Help with Nitrile/Aldehyde problem
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2014, 09:00:37 PM »
So in summary of that lot:
The first product is still a nitrile.
The acid hydrolyses it to the carboxylic acid and causes the elimination of water to give the product you drew.
OC(/C=C/C1=CC=CC=C1)=O
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Offline critzz

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Re: Help with Nitrile/Aldehyde problem
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2014, 09:00:58 PM »
Hi,

In the attachment I drew the full mechanism of the first addition + elemination.
I didn't draw the hydrolisis of the nitrile group, but you can look that up in your book (well known reaction). :)
Hope it helps.

Offline stephanopolous

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Re: Help with Nitrile/Aldehyde problem
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2014, 09:03:02 PM »
Wow I just realized that I was drawing the CH3CN wrong- I was drawing it as CH3N and getting really confused.  OK I'm going to try and draw it all out again and see it if makes sense now.  Thank you!!!

Offline stephanopolous

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Re: Help with Nitrile/Aldehyde problem
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2014, 09:16:27 PM »
It's ok if there's three arrows on the nitrile right?  What I mean is, base takes a hydrogen off of methyl group, electrons move and make a double bond with the next carbon and then there's a third arrow moving the electrons of one of the triple bonds up onto the nitrogen to make it a nucleophile.

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