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What should replace the gasoline engine?

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Topic: Replacing the Gasoline Engine  (Read 135065 times)

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Offline constant thinker

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Re: Replacing the Gasoline Engine
« Reply #75 on: May 15, 2006, 07:47:02 PM »
Having 150% efficiency... Wouldn't that be defying some major physics laws? I'm to tired to figure which ones if any.
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Offline rctrackstar2007

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Re: Replacing the Gasoline Engine
« Reply #76 on: May 15, 2006, 08:14:11 PM »
Having 150% efficiency... Wouldn't that be defying some major physics laws? I'm to tired to figure which ones if any.

it breaks the law of "it's too much math to figure out if you can get 150% efficiency law" lol
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The world is like an atom. The not-quite-as-intelligent people are the nucleus all packed together sharing a common...everything. We, we are the electrons. Granted we're not as smart as these engineers and what-not so we're most likely in the first orbital, but we're the electrons of this giant atom. We all have differing intelligences and ideas and we are separated from the nucleus which makes us better because no one really cares about how a nucleus acts. It's the electrons that make chemistry, except for nuclear chem, of course, which I am a big fan of.

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Offline Borek

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Re: Replacing the Gasoline Engine
« Reply #77 on: May 16, 2006, 03:02:58 AM »
Having 150% efficiency... Wouldn't that be defying some major physics laws? I'm to tired to figure which ones if any.

Energy conservation.
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Offline rctrackstar2007

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Re: Replacing the Gasoline Engine
« Reply #78 on: May 16, 2006, 03:42:01 PM »
Having 150% efficiency... Wouldn't that be defying some major physics laws? I'm to tired to figure which ones if any.

Energy conservation.

or that works too
AP Chemistry Squad Member [002]

The world is like an atom. The not-quite-as-intelligent people are the nucleus all packed together sharing a common...everything. We, we are the electrons. Granted we're not as smart as these engineers and what-not so we're most likely in the first orbital, but we're the electrons of this giant atom. We all have differing intelligences and ideas and we are separated from the nucleus which makes us better because no one really cares about how a nucleus acts. It's the electrons that make chemistry, except for nuclear chem, of course, which I am a big fan of.

-Your's truly, 2006;
  written to describe the HS chem student apart from the average being

Offline constant thinker

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Re: Replacing the Gasoline Engine
« Reply #79 on: May 16, 2006, 06:23:34 PM »
O yea I forgot about energy conservation.
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Offline rctrackstar2007

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Re: Replacing the Gasoline Engine
« Reply #80 on: May 16, 2006, 06:45:13 PM »
O yea I forgot about energy conservation.

conservation of things is over rated, just think about how easy math and science would be if we didn't have to conserve mass or energy  ;D
AP Chemistry Squad Member [002]

The world is like an atom. The not-quite-as-intelligent people are the nucleus all packed together sharing a common...everything. We, we are the electrons. Granted we're not as smart as these engineers and what-not so we're most likely in the first orbital, but we're the electrons of this giant atom. We all have differing intelligences and ideas and we are separated from the nucleus which makes us better because no one really cares about how a nucleus acts. It's the electrons that make chemistry, except for nuclear chem, of course, which I am a big fan of.

-Your's truly, 2006;
  written to describe the HS chem student apart from the average being

Offline tennis freak

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Re: Replacing the Gasoline Engine
« Reply #81 on: May 17, 2006, 07:05:15 PM »
maybe having 150% efficiency would mean that it was an equilibrium reaction? does that even make sense?
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Offline Donaldson Tan

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Re: Replacing the Gasoline Engine
« Reply #82 on: May 17, 2006, 07:55:06 PM »
We all know and have accepted that the 1st and 2nd Law of Thermodynamics prevent efficiency to improve beyond 100%, so cut the crap. Replacing the gasoline engine will not be a simple affair, given we have consider the impact of using a non-gasoline engine on exisiting infrastructure. The new engine must be able to meet both economical and political requirements.

Alternative fuel such as ethanol and biodiessel allows us to use existing technology with slight modification to the engine. However, the problem we are facing in alternative fuel is feedstock supply. Ethanol and biodiessel are converted from something which isn't readily available in large quantities.

Hydrogen fuel cell seems like the ideal engine because of its zero emmision. This is not completely true. One must consider the entire fuel cycle to truly decide if the hydrogen fuel cell is indeed zero emmision. Unfortunately, the current technology to produce hydrogen emits alot of carbon dioxide. Such chemical processes include hydrogen reformation and stripping of hydrogen from hydrocarbon using nuclear energy. Even storing hydrogen itself in the car poses a challenge.

The end of car won't take place because of alot of political opposition.

Personally, I prefer public transport system to become the main mode of transport and uses of private vehicle will be minimised.
"Say you're in a [chemical] plant and there's a snake on the floor. What are you going to do? Call a consultant? Get a meeting together to talk about which color is the snake? Employees should do one thing: walk over there and you step on the friggin� snake." - Jean-Pierre Garnier, CEO of Glaxosmithkline, June 2006

Offline constant thinker

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Re: Replacing the Gasoline Engine
« Reply #83 on: May 17, 2006, 08:56:24 PM »
Public transportation is impossible when you live amongst trees. Actually my area is starting to become more and more commercialized and developed.  :(

If we can get an efficeint fuel cell design with and included storage medium that works well for atleast the general populace's driving needs then that would work out really really well and start the transition. Then hopefully nuclear power will start to see it's comeback come true (at least here in the U.S. damned evironmentalists who are to stupid to see benefits of nuclear vs. coal), then the production of H2 will become much cleaner than what things are like now. We just need cleaner energy plants that use geothermal energy, wind energy, solar energy, and last nuclear energy.

Maybe some scientists will figure out the fusion reactor, and finally the idea of wicked cheap clean electricity for all will come true.  ;)
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' " -Ronald Reagan

"I'm for anything that gets you through the night, be it prayer, tranquilizers, or a bottle of Jack Daniels." -Frank Sinatra

Offline Donaldson Tan

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Re: Replacing the Gasoline Engine
« Reply #84 on: May 20, 2006, 06:41:24 PM »
Fuel Cell might be the future, but I don't reckon it will be the hydrogen fuel cell, given the many problems associated with hydrogen and the fact that hydrogen is not readily available as molecular dihydrogen gas. Fuel cell is awesome because it harnesses chemical energy efficiently to propel vehicles. I believe the gasoline combustion engine will be replaced with a non-hydrogen-based fuel cell. However, I don't think we will get far away from carbon because carbon is one of the most abundant elements on planet Earth. Organic fuel cell is the future. Instead, the fuel cell can be engineered in such a way that carbon output is somehow captured in-situ.

From a logistics point of view, the chemical that is going to be used to run the fuel cell must comes from a renewable feedstock that is available in large quantities any time any where. Biodiessel meets the latter requirement because it can be made from fresh/waste vegetable oil. Although biodiessel is cleaner than conventional diessel, it still utilises an inefficient energy harnessing process to drive the vehicle.

If and only if we human can capture CO2 from the atmosphere and convert it into a fuel using an external energy supply... 

There is one more option - get crude oil from the moon  :P
« Last Edit: May 20, 2006, 09:30:20 PM by geodome »
"Say you're in a [chemical] plant and there's a snake on the floor. What are you going to do? Call a consultant? Get a meeting together to talk about which color is the snake? Employees should do one thing: walk over there and you step on the friggin� snake." - Jean-Pierre Garnier, CEO of Glaxosmithkline, June 2006

Offline Borek

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Re: Replacing the Gasoline Engine
« Reply #85 on: May 20, 2006, 06:50:23 PM »
From a logistics point of view, the chemical that is going to be used to run the fuel cell must comes from a renewable feedstock that is available in large quantities any time any where.

Not so easy. IIRC there is not enough arable grounds in US to support its transportation system - and that's assuming no crops to feed its population.
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Offline Donaldson Tan

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Re: Replacing the Gasoline Engine
« Reply #86 on: May 20, 2006, 06:59:31 PM »
This was reported in August 2003:

New fuel cell uses germs to generate electricity

Scientists at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst announced yesterday that they have built a novel device that uses bacteria to turn garbage into electricity. The new "microbial fuel cell," an early prototype, cannot generate enough power to run an appliance, but it can operate virtually indefinitely without interruption, and is far more efficient than anything like it ever built.

"We are not going to be adding to the power grid at any significant rate soon," said Derek Lovley, a professor of microbiology at UMass-Amherst. "But with an electric lawn mower, you could use the leaves and clippings to power up the battery for next week."

The bacteria in the battery generate electrical current when they feed on sugars, which are found virtually everywhere in nature. The technology could create electricity from a wide variety of materials, from human sewage to compost.

At the heart of the advance, which will be described in the October issue of the journal Nature Biotechnology, is a newly discovered organism that is part of a group of bacteria known as "iron breathers," so called because they rely on iron instead of oxygen. Yesterday's announcement is part of a broader effort to tap the unusual properties of various iron breathers, now being discovered across the far reaches of the planet, to generate power or clean up oil spills or other pollutants.

As it has become clear that the world will need energy alternatives, some researchers have turned to the idea of finding new ways of releasing the enormous amount of energy trapped in plants and other organic matter. This is the idea behind ethanol, a fuel made from corn. But instead of using organic matter to make a fuel, the battery announced yesterday converts organic matter directly into electricity.

"We need people thinking outside of the box, and these researchers are clearly thinking outside the box," said Mark Finkelstein, group manager of bioprocess research and development at the government's National Bioenergy Center in Golden, Colo. "And this has shorter-term possibilities than the hydrogen research that is getting so much funding."

The battery relies on a colony of tiny bacteria, called Rhodoferax ferrireducens, first brought up from underground by a research drill in Oyster Bay, Va. The bacterium is unusual because it is able to completely break down sugars without using oxygen. In its natural environment, the bacterium breaks down sugars for energy and deposits electrons on iron as a byproduct.

The research team, which included UMass-Amherst postdoctoral research associate Swades Chaudhuri, placed these bacteria in a closed glass container with a sugar solution and a graphite electrode. As the bacteria ate the sugar, they took up residence on the electrode and began depositing electrons on it.

When the researchers connected a wire between the electrode and a separate electrode exposed to the air, a current started to flow.

Other researchers have built similar devices but they have been far less efficient at converting the sugar to electricity. Of all the electrons that could theoretically be moved by the process, the battery captured more than 80 percent, compared with less than 1 percent for a previous battery, according to the paper.

The Defense Department, which helped fund the research, is interested in the device because it could be used to run low-power antennas in remote locations without the need for replacing batteries, Lovley said. The electrode could be placed at the bottom of a pile of waste, along with a colony of the bacteria, which would thrive in the sugar-rich, oxygen-poor environment.

The biggest problem right now is the amount of power generated. The test battery generates just enough energy to power a calculator or a single Christmas tree light, Lovley said. Simply changing the electrode, so that more of the microbes can touch it, can increase the amount of power it generates.

The team is exploring the idea of genetically engineering the microbe so that the colony delivers even more electrons to the electrode, boosting the power.

Lovley said he hopes the technology could be used to generate electricity from sewage or other waste. One company has already contacted him about using the technology with waste from pigs. The process could both generate electricity and break apart some of the compounds that make the waste so foul.

"There is a scene in `Back to the Future' where they throw a banana in the car and off it goes," said Lovley. "We are not at that stage yet, but this is a big step from what these fuel cells were able to do before."
« Last Edit: May 20, 2006, 09:32:36 PM by geodome »
"Say you're in a [chemical] plant and there's a snake on the floor. What are you going to do? Call a consultant? Get a meeting together to talk about which color is the snake? Employees should do one thing: walk over there and you step on the friggin� snake." - Jean-Pierre Garnier, CEO of Glaxosmithkline, June 2006

Offline billnotgatez

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Re: Replacing the Gasoline Engine
« Reply #87 on: May 20, 2006, 08:29:18 PM »
Geodome or anyone

Can you do the math to determine how many acres of rapeseed needs to be harvested to run my diesel vehicle for 20000 miles per year.  You can assume 50 miles per US gallon.


Offline Donaldson Tan

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Re: Replacing the Gasoline Engine
« Reply #88 on: May 20, 2006, 11:31:24 PM »
I need additional data. I need to know the annual productivity of rapeseeds per arce and how much biodiessel can be produced from one unit mass of rapeseed oil.
"Say you're in a [chemical] plant and there's a snake on the floor. What are you going to do? Call a consultant? Get a meeting together to talk about which color is the snake? Employees should do one thing: walk over there and you step on the friggin� snake." - Jean-Pierre Garnier, CEO of Glaxosmithkline, June 2006

Offline billnotgatez

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Re: Replacing the Gasoline Engine
« Reply #89 on: May 21, 2006, 03:52:30 AM »
There are several threads on bio-diesel on this site. On one of them I posted the following link.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html
That link has a sub-link, which gives the output per acre of various vegetable oil sources.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html
Rapeseed  1000kg oil/ha  1190litres oil/ha  893lbs oil/acre  127US gal/acre
I think that rapeseed oil is also called canola (sic).
I am unsure of how to convert the quantity of oil to the quantity of bio-diesel.
I thought in all of your reading you might know.

By the way many of the other threads have lots of interesting information and points of view. Search on bio-diesel and/or biodiesel

« Last Edit: May 21, 2006, 03:55:46 AM by billnotgatez »

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