[Doc.AElstein]

Hi
Choline, Cholin and Cholinbitartrate.
This question follows from my earlier Posts. For example
http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=83858.msg304041#msg304041  **
http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=83937.msg304488#msg304488

I am not a Chemist but am trying to keep some sort of order in listings and Diet Protocols I am constructing for private use in weight controlling Diets. (  ** List at end of that first post. )

Questions:
_1 ) I am looking for a preferably not to technical descriptions of what sort of “things” Cholin and Cholinbitartrate are. Are they sort of Vitamins, acids, Fats, Protein,  etc. 

_ 2 ) Do they have an approximate Kcal per 100g?

In my original massive “Things “ list I made ** ,  I do have cholin acid ( for some reason that escapes me now ! ). But i do not have Cholin and Cholinbitartrate which are appearing now in some Nutritional Supplements that I am considering.

No rush here, but any info understandable to a non Chemist to give me some idea as to where these might be “grouped “ ( which similar products or types do they belong for example ) and any Kcal per 100g would be helpful.

Many Thanks
Alan Elston

[AWK]

See wikipedia thread: choline

[Doc.AElstein]

Hi again AWK

See wikipedia thread: choline

  Thanks for that. I am having ( another )  look now at that article.
I see now for example that there is some reference to it being “usually grouped within the B-complex vitamins”, although within vitamins lists within a food product I have very rarely seen it listed.
I seem to have “caught” Cholin in my somewhat ambitious “thing” list (   
http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=83858.msg304041#msg304041
    ) in a “Phytosterols” section listed near things like Inositol.

I guess Cholin is just Choline spelt slightly differently. Cholin-Chlorid I seem to have seen in other products as well.
So this again is possibly telling me for example that I have no Kcal pro 100g, for example, for this “thing”

But i see no reference at all to Cholinbitartrate.

Please do not take this the wrong way. I am very grateful for you taking the time to reply and try to help.
But the “wiki” search is often the first thing that springs to mind.
But:
_1 ) I had not found the info there, hence I turned to this professional Forum for help.
_2 ) Experts have often told me that such info  in internet is not controlled so may be incorrect..
I am working on a personal product but which involves diets so i am trying to get the best advice i can
Hence I was looking for some help from professionals.
 If you think the info I am looking for is in a particular Internet article, maybe you could direct me a bit more specifically. The vast amount of info one receives from a Google search with for a laymen like me is overwhelming. One often needs help in knowing exactly where to look. Clearly that particular article you indicated to me has helped me tie down possibly Cholin. I had been thrown off a bit not looking at Choline... so once again Thanks.

Many  thanks again for the reply. I appreciate any attempts to help. I am being very ambitious in what i am trying to understand, and so inevitably cannot always ask too clearly a question. I apologise  for that. (  I was also trying not to give a “wall-of-text” )
Thanks again for your time. I appreciate it.

Alan

[AWK]

cholin bitartrate is a simple salt.

[Doc.AElstein]

cholin bitartrate is a simple salt.

Thanks for that extremely  quick reply
I guess that is telling me
_1 ) that I have no Kcal per 100g for this
And
_2) Possibly as a Salt, it is a sort of “Mineral”. But i have not listed Cholin as a Mineral. Although I  guess “Phytosterols” as non Kcal Nutritions could all be classified as “Minerals”

It is all very confusing to a laymen like me
Thanks for helping to add some clarity

Alan

[AWK]

Obtaining salts and their stiochiometry is an elementary freshman chemistry.

[Doc.AElstein]

Obtaining salts and their stiochiometry is an elementary freshman chemistry.

I did go through the workings of calculating Sodium and Potassium from Normal “Salt“ ( NaCl ) some time ago. That was necessary to get at Sodium from “Salt” if only that was given sometimes for Food products.
But that unfortunately is about  the limit of my “Chemistry”. I am a bit out of my depth.

[AWK]

Chemists work through analogy. If you can calculate NaCl from NaOH and HCl, then you are able to calculate choline bitartrate from choline and tartaric acid, or chromium picolinate from chromium hydroxide and picolinic acid.

[Doc.AElstein]

  I can see some logic in what you are saying. Some time ago I tried  along those Acids, Bases & Salts lines for the simple NaCl case. But it just got a bit too much and over my head....
_....I am just so swamped with the many products i am trying to consider, along with my time and chemistry knowledge constraints,  that detailed calculations to give me the equivalent in those cases to the final result, ( as an example,  for the NaCl of .3933 x Salt for the Sodium content ) is just a bit too much for me presently. I am not lazy, but just overwhelmed currently with the task I have set myself.
_  .. A final answer of Kcal per 100g ( if there is one ) for choline bitartrate, based on working out the tartaric acid content, and similarly for the chromium picolinate case is what i am looking for.
_  .. And i am someone that really likes to get at and do a detailed calculation of that along the lines you suggest. It is just too much for me just now. So i was looking for some help.
 But you have given me some directions. Thanks. I hope i get the time to do those calculations, if no one has them for me.

Once again many thanks.
Alan

[Babcock_Hall]

"Although choline is not by strict definition a vitamin, it is an essential nutrient. Despite the fact that humans can synthesize it in small amounts, choline must be consumed in the diet to maintain health."
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/other-nutrients/choline

This is a good essay on choline:
"Choline: An Essential Nutrient for Public Health"
Nutr Rev. 2009 Nov; 67(11): 615–623.  doi:  10.1111/j.1753-4887.2009.00246.x

[Doc.AElstein]

Thanks Babcock_Hall,
 I guess then a Vitamin rather than a Mineral then is more appropriate for my “grouping of things”. Or just left down there in my “Phytosterols”.. I guess a Mineral is strictly a much simple thing

 A great amount of info there again for me to try to go through.

 Still struggling as a laymen

But thanks for the reply

Alan

[Babcock_Hall]

Unlike fats, carbohydrates, and proteins, we only need vitamins in very small amounts.  Vitamins are essential in our diet because we cannot make them from simple precursors, unlike bacteria and plants.    At first I was going to classify choline as a vitamin, based on the idea that we generally need it in our diet.  However, it is a subtle point.  Here is what David Metzler's textbook says:  "In the present of adequate amounts of folic acid and and vitamin B12, it [choline] is not absolutely essential." p. 837.  Folic acid (the conjugate acid of folate) and vitamin B12 are both vitamins.

[Doc.AElstein]

Thanks again.
So maybe where I  “list” these “things” is OK.. that is to say not directly with Vitamins. 
If I get anywhere further with choline bitartrate, /  working out the tartaric acid content, Kcal etc etc.. I will post back. I do not think i will be able to get that myself , yet.
But thanks for the info.
Alan
Thanks again.
So maybe where I  “list” these “things” is OK.. that is to say not directly with Vitamins. 
If I get anywhere further with choline bitartrate, /  working out the tartaric acid content, Kcal etc etc.. I will post back. I do not think i will be able to get that myself , yet.
But thanks for the info.
Alan

[Borek]

“grouping of things”

We told you long ago that is approach is not leading anywhere and is a waste of time. No matter how much time you will spend trying to classify everything, sooner or later you are going to find a substance that either doesn't fit into any category, or fits into several categories at once.

Plus, some of your attempts just don't make any chemical sense.

[Doc.AElstein]

Hi Borek,
I fully agree and have myself said that it is a very hard task I have set myself. I do need to somehow keep control of the “things” that we may be consuming. Indeed some “things” will just be placed somewhere based on a guess. Duplicate entries as well, as you rightly say, do occur also. ( I try to allow in the software that i am using that when that occurs things are not added twice. In simple terms the “first” entry to the left will be taken where the Nutrition values are more easily definable ( Starting at Kcal Fett..  the more common  Minerals...Vitamins   etc...  etc... ) ... a duplicate entry somewhere to the right in the more difficult to define “things” will  then not be added, as it were, to the final sum.
_..

..
Plus, some of your attempts just don't make any chemical sense.

I have probably not made my aim clear.
_1 ) I want to be careful not to take too much of a particular “thing”. Hence some attempt at a list.
_2)  I try to obtain Kcal values even for as much as possible:  After many well meant attempts by the best diet experts my Wife has a Metabolism beyond belief reacting to every Kcal. I really need even on the Supplements therefore to control that total intake.

Never the less, thanks for the reply and sorry for any trouble. I will try very hard to limit any further requests for help to those more .. well.. “acceptable” !

I do remain grateful for the help I have received to date. It has helped me. This  Thread, for example ,  was finally very helpful
http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=83937.15

Alan