[Mitch]

Sure, using the term "drop-out" loosely.

[Donaldson Tan]

Sure, using the term "drop-out" loosely.

There are many reasons to drop-out. Not faring academically well may be one of them, but I am sure it's not the only reason why people drop out from PhD programs. However, the term drop-out has a damnation aspect in it, so I would refrain from using it.

[mike]

In a way that confirms that MSc can be a PhD dropout.

Borek: Are you deliberately trying to p*** me off?

Where and when did you do your PhD?

You have the right to call me a drop out and judge me or whatever, but I don't have to like it

[Borek]

In a way that confirms that MSc can be a PhD dropout.

Borek: Are you deliberately trying to p*** me off?

No I was told several months ago that most MSc in US are PhD program dropouts, please read earlier posts. Also note what I have already stated on May 23^rd.

Where and when did you do your PhD?

Read "Introduce yourself" thread. I am dropout myself.

You have the right to call me a drop out and judge me or whatever, but I don't have to like it

Never planned to call anyone dropout (perhaps with excpetion for myself), I just wanted to clarify situation. I know that in some places MSc is a prerequisite to PhD, while in others it is not. I have also heard that in US graduate studies are generally aimed at PhD, not MSc, and MSc is not a prerequisite - if so, where do the US MSc come from? Looks like I was partially wrong (you can aim at MSc in US graduate programs) and partially right (see hmx post). That's all.

[hmx9123]

Well, dropout is a little better than 'fail out' which is something you previously stated.  Your information about 'most US graduate students being PhD dropouts' is incorrect; it is a very unfair and wholly unsubstantiated statement.  That would completely depend on the university.  Here at Berkeley, that may be correct; at a university where you have to get an MS first, though, it is decidedly incorrect.  You can get an MS if you aim for it, and you can get it if you leave your PhD program early for whatever reason.  Like I said before, though, you can sometimes write up a MS thesis and get an MS even if you're in the PhD program; I had a friend at Illinois who did this.  Their program there is only PhD, but he took his first two years of work and wrote up a thesis, which gave him an MS.  He then continued and got his PhD--he simply wanted the MS for whatever reason.  So, does that make him a PhD dropout?  Not at all.

Some programs here give you a BS and an MS after 4 years; I have two friends here in graduate school with MSs from their 'undergraduate' days.  They still had to go through the 5 year PhD program, though, as Berkeley didn't honor their MS (because they wanted more money--it had nothing to do with their degrees).  Honestly, what it all really boils down to is money.  In chemistry, an MS is somewhat of an anomaly because it is treated so differently from university to university, at least here in the US.  A BS is fairly standard, and the PhD seems to be standard all over the world, but the MS varies a lot from place to place.  Some countries don't even have an MS and have other names for their degrees.

[Borek]

Thanks for the explanation. Just in case: thats where it all started: sci.chem post  bymuha,  Apr 10 2005 6:59 am).

Note I have never stated I believe it is 100% correct and true statement, I just wanted to clarify things for myself. If I sounded offensive for anybody - I appologize

[Equi]

Like I said before, though, you can sometimes write up a MS thesis and get an MS even if you're in the PhD program; I had a friend at Illinois who did this.  Their program there is only PhD, but he took his first two years of work and wrote up a thesis, which gave him an MS.  He then continued and got his PhD--he simply wanted the MS for whatever reason.  So, does that make him a PhD dropout?  Not at all.

Sounds like a cheap way to obtain a master degree. What are the average tuition fees again?

[hmx9123]

Really, it's not any cheaper than getting an MS.  If you get an MS, you have to pay for 2 years of grad school, then 3 of PhD.  If you get a PhD, you have to pay for 5 years of grad school.  Since 2+3 = 5 and you only need 2 for a MS in either case, it's still 2 years of tuition.

[Baseball_Fan]

I'm in the USA. I've been looking at many university handbooks, and this is what they all say-

A B.S. or B.A. is a 120 semester hour, 4 year undergraduate degree.

A Masters is a 30 semester hour, 1-2 year graduate degree. Many masters degrees are terminal. Many of the universities I looked at that do NOT offer a PhD do offer a MS or MA. Where I live, there are 4 universities within 60 miles. 1 of them is a state school with a MS and PhD option in chemistry. The other 3 universities only offer MS in chemistry, and if the student wants more, they have no choice but to continue elsewhere.

What I am getting at is many people get a masters degree so they can have a graduate degree. A masters might be worth more money at work than just a BS. A masters will also give an advantage when looking for a job, compared with people who only have a BS.

If I can get enough money to pay for school, I would like to go and get a BS then a MS. I'm 30 years old, and I doubt I could take 8 years of study to get a PhD. I'd be 40 before I'd start making money. I would like to have a normal life with a house, and those extra 3 years of working would mean I'd be closer to those goals. Even if the difference between a MS and PhD is $55,000/year compared to $70,000/year, life is finite and I'd rather have the 165,000 now and enjoy it, than have the difference trickle in.

I'm sure those PhD students who accepted a MS early probably had a good reason. Maybe they got married and had a child and wanted to work. Or maybe they did not like the university they were at. I'm sure there are thousands of reasons why someone might preffer a MS to a PhD.