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Topic: Weakness of Arrenhius definition  (Read 6176 times)

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Offline FouRRaW

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Weakness of Arrenhius definition
« on: June 05, 2006, 08:41:09 PM »
I don't really know what this means??

The arrenhius definition of acids and bases did not account for cases such as NH3 producing basic solutions because it did not account for the reaction with the H2O molecule.

Could anyone clarify??

Offline wereworm73

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Re: Weakness of Arrenhius definition
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2006, 09:42:36 PM »
The Arrhenius definition of acids & bases is strictly limited to substances that dissociate in water to form H3O+ or OH-.  Unfortunately, this overlooks a lot of other substances that can also neutralize acids or bases.  NH3, for instance, can neutralize acids, but it doesn't have an -OH group so the Arrhenius definition overlooks this one as a base.

Offline hmx9123

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Re: Weakness of Arrenhius definition
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2006, 09:43:31 PM »
First off, start with what is the Arrhenius definition.  What does it say, explicitly?  Then ask yourself how the reaction of water with NH3 doesn't fit.  Try it and let us know the results.

As I was typing, wereworm73 posted, so some of this may be moot, but read it and ask the questions anyway.

Offline FouRRaW

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Re: Weakness of Arrenhius definition
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2006, 09:57:38 PM »
well, NH3 + H2O = OH- + NH4+

so doesn't neutralization occur?  and b/c there are OH- ions than arrenhius would say this is a base?

But he is wrong because Neutralization occurs, correct??

Offline wereworm73

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Re: Weakness of Arrenhius definition
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2006, 05:43:06 PM »
In that reaction, the OH- ions are coming from the water, not the NH3 molecules.  So the Arrhenius definition doesn't count NH3 as a base.

These below are Arrhenius bases because the OH- ions are the result of the molecules dissociating (breaking up) in water.

NaOH --> Na+ + OH-
Ca(OH)2 --> Ca2+ + 2 OH-

Back in the late 1800's, Arrhenius figured out how some of the acids & bases work (which was quite a breakthrough back then) but not all of them (because his definition of them was too narrow).  Later on, Bronsted & Lowry broadened (and improved) the definition to include all substances which can either donate or accept protons.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 06:40:39 PM by wereworm73 »

Offline hmx9123

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Re: Weakness of Arrenhius definition
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2006, 11:48:06 PM »
Further down the line, you get the Lewis definition of acids and bases, which is even broader.

Offline swati

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Re: Weakness of Arrenhius definition
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2006, 07:23:19 AM »
 :)  Hello everyone
Also we have solvent system definition ( by Cady & Elsey ) which defines acids & bases not only in aqueous solvents but other solvents also.

According to it

An acid is a solute that either by direct dissociation or by reaction with the solvent increase the concentration of cation characteristic of the solvent .

An base is a solute that either by direct dissociation or by reaction with the solvent increase the concentration of anion characteristic of the solvent .

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