[jra]

Hello All,
   I hope this is the right place to post this question, if it isn't i apologize.

I am looking for substances that can be combined with water to lower it's freezing point.  Whatever substance that is would also need to not have a flash point.  Not sure if that is the right term, what i am trying to say is it can't be combustible or cause ignition at any temperature. 

This may be a very basic question, this may be a ridiculously vague question, i really don't know.  I am working on the development of a possibly industry changing product and this is the largest hurdle we have to cross.  Please don't hesitate to email me if you have detailed information on this subject, I really need to get to the bottom of this query ASAP!

Thanks for listening,
J.A.

[Borek]

The question is so basic it seems to me like you have no idea what you are doing. If you throw away volatile liquids, everything that you can dissolve in water will lower its freezing point, it is a high school chemistry. How come finding one of these substances is a serious hurdle?

[wildfyr]

Sodium chloride.

[jra]

Wow Borek, thanks for such a warm welcoming response. There any many other requirements besides just lowering the freeze point, I was just looking for some ideas. Must also:
  1. Have no flash point
  2. Be compatible with pvc, cpvc resins(Can not deteriorate these substances).
  3. Can not expand in hot or cold temperatures.
  4. Environmentally friendly
  5. Cheap
  6. Have a freeze point at or below 0 Celsius.
  7. Be patentable

If this is a simple question and you can easily make 1000's of gallons of a substance that meets these requirements and can be produced for under a few bucks per gallon please PM me.  This is no joke, I am a retired former small business owner, (sold my company  a year ago) and i'm 38 years old. With my knowledge of this industry and connections this is an opportunity you won't want to miss. I don't say any of this to brag, I just want to be clear that this is a real question with a real product to be used for a very specific purpose that we (business partner and I.....and you maybe?) need to get in the market asap. There is obviously much more to our product than just this, but this is the only part we haven't solved yet because we are not chemist, we are businessmen.
Really hope to hear from somebody, please PM me for more details,  I would really like to speak with somebody about this.

[DrCMS]

Points 1 to 6 are trivial and as other have said sodium chloride or virtually anything soluble in water will do that. However none of these would be patentable.  In addition getting ideas off the internet with the associated electronic paper trail would also invalidate any patent quite easily.   The number of "businessmen" I have met like you who think they have a great idea that just needs a scientist/engineer to finish off when in reality they have no idea at all is astonishing. 

[Borek]

1. Have no flash point

Solids that are not volatile don't have flash points. Most inorganic salts will do.

2. Be compatible with pvc, cpvc resins(Can not deteriorate these substances).

Again, most inorganic salts will be compatible.

3. Can not expand in hot or cold temperatures.

Depends on what you mean by "expand" (ie what is acceptable). BTW: if treated too rigorously it rules out water as a solvent.

4. Environmentally friendly

Many inorganic salts will do.

5. Cheap

Many inorganic salts will do.

6. Have a freeze point at or below 0 Celsius.

By definition any water solution will do.

7. Be patentable

As DrCMS wrote: you can't patent something obvious.

[jra]

just noticed this as well, needs to have a freeze point at or below 0 Fahrenheit, not celsius.....don't know how to edit that old post though, sorry.

[jra]

sorry, one last thing, the substance can't corrode metal, salt will corrode metal.

[P]

Anifreeze!  (Ethylene glycol)

[jra]

anti-freeze (glycol) has a flash point.

[P]

anti-freeze (glycol) has a flash point.

Not when it's mixed into water at about 5% I don't think....  Could be wrong though.

Regarding the rusting of metal...  water rusts metal (so does air), so the addition of some salt might not increase the rusting rate much in comparison to how quick it will corrode anyway. Maybe some sort of rust prevention treatment on the metal before hand...  a Zinc phosphate/oxide or an ATP type primer with flash rust inhibitors should help.

What is the application? If we knew then maybe we could offer better advice.

[jra]

at 5% glycol the freezing point would still be too high. good point on the rusting part though, i need to get some more precise specifications/requirements on that.  as far as a specific application, i have a NDA that must be signed before anything like that can be discussed.

[Borek]

water rusts metal (so does air)

Actually it is more complicated than that - you need both water and air for the rust to appear. In general steel pipe can be quite safely used to circulate oxygenless water.

Not that it helps with the (redefined) original problem.

I wonder if some triose (like glyceraldehyde) wouldn't work.

[GentryMillMan]

Potassium Acetate?

less corrosive than other salts, therefore used as a deicer on airport runways and also used in fire extinguishers.
might be worth some further research to see how it might fit your needs.

[jra]

Thank you for the last 2 posts, discussing/looking into both of those options now. Thanks!