[Borek]

The first 5 gallon batch I remove is usually up around 9.5.. Second batch falls to around 9.2, and so on until my 6th or 7th batch is barely above incoming water pH... (7.5 or so).. That means that first batch has something like 10,000 times more caustic in it than the last batch..  Is that correct?  pH is  X10 for each number higher?

Check you math - while you are right about 1 pH unit meaning 10 times difference, you start with 9.5 and end with 7.5, that's two units - so 100, not 10000.

[billnotgatez]

Not being an agricultural chemist, but looking at various pieces of information about fertilizers, it looks like salts of potassium created using phosphoric, sulfuric, and / or nitric acids would work. I lean towards the phosphoric acid and potassium hydroxide combination because it may have a more buffering activity. The sulfuric acid and potassium hydroxide combination may participate out initially and then dissolve as the pH gets closer to neutral. I do not think hydrochloric acid would be a good option.

You still might get fertilizer burn should you just dump it one small area. Actually had you spread the potassium hydroxide at the pH level you have over a wide area it would probably not have shown the browning effect, especially after a rain.

One side note, you are using potassium hydroxide with methanol and I thought most suggest you use ethanol.

Murphy – a question for you – which do you think is better, slightly alkaline soil or slightly acid soil?

[Murphy]

Borek,
You are correct.. Thanks..   100 is much better than 10,000!!!!  LOL

billnotgatez,
Thanks for the information you have provided.  I'm going to try the phosphoric acid as soon as I can find a few gallons of it.   Isnt there some product called "Rust Mort" or something that is used to turn rusted car part into a black oxide or something that contains a high concentration of phosphoric acid?

As for the soil.... I have NO idea what so ever on what side of the pH scale is better.  My "uneducated" guess would be to say that acidic is better.   I only say this because in my limited experience with chemicals (15 years industrial processing),  I am a lot less afraid of acidic stuff than I am of caustic stuff..   Acid is way over-rated as dangerous while caustic materials can cause massive damage with little or no warning.   Given the choice, I'd rather spill acid on myself than caustic soda.. Of course, like I said, I have no idea.. Its just a guess out of the blue.

It seems to me from my very limited knowledge, Acid dissolves metals and minerals in the soil while caustic tends to destroy biological things.    I would think a plant would be able to deal with a dissolved metal much better than a caustic attacking its root..   Also, as I understand it, septic systems dont like soap (which is on the caustic side).. Being that a septic system is basically a miniature eco-system in itself and that they dont like caustic stuff, I'd have to say acid would be better for a plant.

Do you know the answer?   Am I right or wrong?

[Borek]

As for the soil.... I have NO idea what so ever on what side of the pH scale is better.  My "uneducated" guess would be to say that acidic is better.   I only say this because in my limited experience with chemicals (15 years industrial processing),  I am a lot less afraid of acidic stuff than I am of caustic stuff..   Acid is way over-rated as dangerous while caustic materials can cause massive damage with little or no warning.   Given the choice, I'd rather spill acid on myself than caustic soda.. Of course, like I said, I have no idea.. Its just a guess out of the blue.

It all depends on the plants - and pH. Some plants prefer slightly acidic soil, some prefer slightly basic one. Note it is "slightly" - I believe pH 5 to 8 is the range occuring in natural soils (but better check me on this, it is 50% guess). But just because these occurs naturally, doesn't mean every plant will survive them. pH control of soils is an important part of tending your crops (AFAIK most often CaCO₃ is used to raise pH of acidic soils).

As for acid/base dangers - while (if given a choice) I would rather wash my hands in 1M HCl than in 1M NaOH (which supports your approach) they can be both dangerous when concentrated - so it is better to not underestimate either.

[billnotgatez]

which do you think is better, slightly alkaline soil or slightly acid soil?

Is there such a thing as using too much fertilizer?

The reason I posed the questions was to get us thinking about the effect of using fertilizer. Just because we make some chemical into a fertilizer does not mean we could have desired results. The question about acid / base status of a soil was a trick question. This is because some plants like acid soil and some like alkaline soil. But, I actually fooled myself. I know that in this area farmers are typically amending the soil with lime. So I assume very slightly alkaline was optimum, which is not entirely true. In most cases it seems that they are just raising it far enough to be very slightly acid or neutral. I base this on the below links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_pH
http://www.esf.edu/PUBPROG/brochure/soilph/soilph.htm
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/garden/07727.html
http://www.donnan.com/soilph.htm

The upshot of this means that you want to convert your highly alkaline potassium hydroxide to near neutral to keep the soil at the pH it is already at. It seems that most plants will tolerate 6.8 to 7.2 pH. Also remember that most fertilizer has various components so you might also want to add something like urea to the soil where you put the neutralized potassium hydroxide, but still make an effort to maintain the appropriate pH after any addition.

[billnotgatez]

I got the below information from various web sites

phosphoric acid     H3PO4     pH Down     Some pH reducers (available at pet stores) used in fish tanks are simply dilute solutions (up to 30%) of phosphoric acid.  Also available in gel form at hardware stores as a rust remover.  "Naval Jelly" in a spray bottle at hardware stores.  Also used as a solder flux.

Phosphoric Acid

Formula: H3PO4
Synonyms: –

Suppliers:

1. It is sold by some hardware stores as a rust remover, sometimes by the name "Naval Jelly".

2. Some hydroponics suppliers sell it as a "pH Minus" (i.e. an agent to decrease the pH of water).

Atlantis Hydroponics (USA)
Elements Hydroponics Centre (UK)
GroWell Hydroponics (UK)
Hydro Gardens (USA)
HydroHobby (UK)

3. Some food suppliers sell it

4. Some alternative photographic suppliers sell it.

Bostick and Sullivan (USA)
Photographers' Formulary (USA)

5. Some brewing and winemaking suppliers sell it.

Beer Beer and More Beer (USA)
Defalco's (USA)

[Murphy]

Damn Bill, You're "the man".. Thanks for all your help..

I completely agree with you about some plants liking acidic and some liking caustic..

Some of the guys who make bio use NaOH instead of KOH.. NaOH is toxic to almost all plants.. This raised the discussion of constructing a poor-mans wetlands of plants that like the salty / high pH waste water we generate.   After 20 min of reading, I quickly realized it would be a project to large for me to take on and not very compatible with Michigan environment. Thus, I started searching for a better way.

I think I need to get myself a soil type pH meter  This entire project of mine was taken on with the understanding that with a little research and work, I could completely recycle all of my product and by-products with a positive influence.  I'm holding true to that so far.. Things are looking good.. I just need to fine tune everything.

I think that before I go neutralizing things with acid, I better check soil pH then.   I'm not much of a farmer 

Thanks again for all your help.

[Borek]

I think I need to get myself a soil type pH meter

http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-measurements-other-procedures

[billnotgatez]

If you search this forum you will find several entries involving bio-diesel (use the word diesel). I usually do not suggest using the search engine here because I find it challenging, but others more adept than me get results. In any case there is a thread by me that suggest an experiment which I have not done yet.
http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=7087.0
My suggestion was to use ethanol and potassium hydroxide, which is more difficult. The reason was I wanted to stay away from buying methanol. But I suppose the home chemist could make methanol even though it is not as easy as ethanol. There is a web site that I read from time to time to keep thinking on this experiment.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html

[Murphy]

Bill,
Please, do not point people to journeytoforever...

People experienced in biodiesel production will tell you that site is filled with inaccurate information. Some of the information is so off that you can damage your engine.

Journeytoforever is a joke site among biodiesel producers.   

Just to give you one example:  Journey to forever suggest using 3.5g of lye as base..  Anyone following this instruction will be producing bio with unreacted oil dissolved within it..  The minimum amount of base catalyst should be 5 grams.  Commercial producers use up to 9 grams.  That site is filled with misleading, inaccurate and some just-out-right-false statements and instructions.  The real problem is that anyone making bio from that information wont know there is a problem until they have already put 10,000 miles on their engine, at which time your fuel injector pump fails or you find out your engine is gunked up with unreacted bio deposits.  Something I find even more interesting is the folks who run straight veggy oil.  As far as that's concerned, bring your cell phone cause your gonna need it..


Thanks again for all your help..

[billnotgatez]

Murphy –

Suggest another site with all the same information, but corrected and I will edit my entries. For instance oil content of various plant products etc.

Some sources seem short on biology and others seem short on mechanical and others are short on chemistry. Is there a site that has all accurately?

I am always willing to correct my entries.

Regards,
Bill

[Murphy]

Try these:
A newbie guide      http://www.biodieselcommunity.org   

Best Forum            http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/


Those two sites above can take a newbie all the way from their first 1 liter test batch to becoming a commercial producer.  There are even a few commercial producers who participate in the forums and we have one phd chemical engineer.. (although he doesn't post nearly often enough, when he does, we listen intently)

[Donaldson Tan]

Best Forum http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/

I doubt the biodiessel forum will be helpful since the threadstarter intends to convert waste stream into a fertiliser.

[billnotgatez]

Murphy –
What do you plan on doing with the glycerol / glycerin side product?

[Murphy]

Murphy –
What do you plan on doing with the glycerol / glycerin side product?

There are many uses for it.  Currently I am storing it.. I am in the process of building a reflux still to distill the glycerin and recover my methanol from it.  This protects the environment and gets my money back.. (meth is expensive).
Once this is done, part of the glycerin will go though soaponification to make soap for my shop floor, drive way, etc etc.  While making soap from glycerin is a cool thing to do, one five gallon bucket of it will make more soap than I can probably use in my lifetime!!   Great idea but it sure wont get rid of all my byproduct.   I'm looking into purifying it to a commercial grade product.  As I understand, its not that hard to do..  If that doesn't work out, I'll burn it for heat.  Glycerin has a pretty good btu content and I am building an outdoor wood burning boiler for winter heating.. (High natural gas prices and all)..